how hard is jazz really??

[Fishbrain]

I advertise myself on musofinder as working bass player. I've never played any jazz gigs or witha jazz band but I can play some jazz songs and occasionally mess around with some jazzy stuff with my own band. I don't know any details yet and I have asked for more details, but what do you guys reckon? Will I just look like a fool or will I be able to get by?

[DrayMiles]

Don't kid yourself. Light explorations into jazz doesn't make one jazz proficient. It is as difficult as you want it to be...

Where I come from the older cats let you think you're doing ok, then they throw you a curve just to shake you up and give you a lesson.

[Fishbrain]

At the minute I'm thinking that if its chord charts and such then I should be ok, but if were venturing into improv and that I might give it a miss

[CamMcIntyre]

Can you walk a line given at least basic/common changes? E.g. 12 bar blues and rhthym changes? If you can-you more than likely could hang for wall paper style gigs and a chunk of "normal" jazz gigs. If you don't own a real book-i'd buy one and see how many tunes you can play.

You need to be ready for a call, but if you aren't ready for it-don't embarass yourself by taking a gig you aren't ready or qualified for. I think there's a fine line between jumping in and getting vibed pretty hard by older cats and getting in over your head in a bad way.

I think it would ultimately depend on the kind of jazz gig if that makes sense. Is it playing standards while people eat dinner? Is it playing with some really smoking cats in a club? If you got called by someone, more than likely it means they like your playing or have at least been given a favorable review of you-i'd check it out but with some caution.

[jenderfazz]

Originally Posted by Fishbrain

At the minute I'm thinking that if its chord charts and such then I should be ok, but if were venturing into improv and that I might give it a miss

Jazz is heavily-rooted in improvisation. There are "jazz standards" you can play with charts... and then there's jazz. It could be simple, it could be tough. It's definitely a worthwhile exploration!

[Fishbrain]

Originally Posted by CamMcIntyre

Can you walk a line given at least basic/common changes? E.g. 12 bar blues and rhthym changes? If you can-you more than likely could hang for wall paper style gigs and a chunk of "normal" jazz gigs. If you don't own a real book-i'd buy one and see how many tunes you can play.

You need to be ready for a call, but if you aren't ready for it-don't embarass yourself by taking a gig you aren't ready or qualified for. I think there's a fine line between jumping in and getting vibed pretty hard by older cats and getting in over your head in a bad way.

I think it would ultimately depend on the kind of jazz gig if that makes sense. Is it playing standards while people eat dinner? Is it playing with some really smoking cats in a club? If you got called by someone, more than likely it means they like your playing or have at least been given a favorable review of you-i'd check it out but with some caution.

walking lines and 12 bar lines arent a problem. what real books can anyone recommend to me?

[brianrost]

Originally Posted by Fishbrain

what real books can anyone recommend to me?

http://halleonard.com/item_detail.js...rds=real+book+

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by DrayMiles

Where I come from the older cats let you think you're doing ok, then they throw you a curve just to shake you up and give you a lesson.

+1 on that. Early on I had a gig where we started with a few easy blues tunes, then Mack the Knife, no sweat... then Rhythm changes in E... fast.

As for the Real books. Do a search on eBay for "Fake Books" and you get a lot of people selling all kinds of books (Real Books 1,2,3... Colorado Cook Book etc etc) for a couple of bucks on a DVD or a download. Its worth it. I think Hal Leonard sells them too. There's a lifetime of learning there, and you'll love every minute of it.

[Fishbrain]

can anyone point me in the direction of some jazz chord charts or anything else notation or tab that i can print off an stick my head in while i order a book! cheers =)

[Bruce Lindfield]

I would go for the Sher Real Books - they are used much more in the UK than the others.

Also - look at The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine.

www.lucaspickford.com has some good Jazz chord charts/lead sheets...?

Like :

[Fishbrain]

ok so i've gone onto that site and theres loads, any good pointers on which ones to start at?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by Fishbrain

ok so i've gone onto that site and theres loads, any good pointers on which ones to start at?

Well - the most 'standard' Jazz tune is the transcription under bass, for Ron Carter's line on 'Take the A train'...

Another book I have found very useful for people who are new to Jazz is Ed Friedland's book just called "Jazz Bass" - which covers all the basics you need to know - like 8s, 4s etc. with the drums...

[Fishbrain]

cheers i'll have a look for them!

[wilser]

May I also recommend John Goldsby's The Jazz Bass book. It's got a nice history (with examples from the greats) and some jazz theory and walking line construction tips for you to start with.

[CamMcIntyre]

Originally Posted by wilser

May I also recommend John Goldsby's The Jazz Bass book. It's got a nice history (with examples from the greats) and some jazz theory and walking line construction tips for you to start with.

That book is a great read too.

What book seems to vary depending on your area a bit. For sheer learning-the Sher books are great. For learning/memorization of tunes i like the Aebersold play-a-longs.

I own 2 real books-a 5th edition in bass clef and a 6th edition in treble [C]. Some of the keys in the 6th are in different keys than in the 5th. The 6th edition was put out by hal leonard.

The reasoning behind recommending a book vs. the CD is that if you aren't given a tune list ahead of time, i'd feel a bit "safer" just taking a real book.

[TroyK]

You know...I'll give you my input as someone who played a EBG in various formats of non-jazz bands for about 20 years before getting into Jazz and switching to doublebass. When I started playing "Moondance", I starting thinking I could play jazz. I see this a lot with people moving into jazz as well, usually from guitar, bass or drums. For that matter brass bands or classical piano training.

The good news is that it can be done. Lot's of people do it. But, understanding technically how to play jazz isn't going to be enough to help you pull it off with real jazz players. What is?

Step 1) Listen to Jazz...A LOT. I have grown to LOATH playing with competient musicians who claim that they can play jazz, but aren't rooted in it. There is so much to the music, interplay between musicians, referrences to famous and not-so-famous recordings, etc that is the common language of jazz. How can you meet your bandmates on a gig and play whatever gets called and not have it appear obvious to the audience or other musicians? Steep yourself in jazz. I can't for the life of my figure out why people who don't listen to jazz, insist on playing it (except for the work, of course). You may be an excpetion, but I'm speaking broadly.

Step 2) Play jazz with a lot other people. Find casual playing opportunities and work yourself up to taking whatever call comes your way. There is a whole spoken and musical vocabulary that exists between jazz musicians that is as important as your technical abilities to play through chord changes.

Step 3) Those books referrences and even a teacher are all good. Consider that 50% of what you need to know. The other half is organic and can only be found above.

When I first get together with a guitarist, pianist or singer I can tell in the first 8 bars if they really have a jazz background or not and the guys who you're going to want to play with will care. Be respectful of them and yourself and if it's something you decide that you want to do, it's obtainable. How hard is it to play? I don't know anything about you, but you could probably do it on some level and you could certainly learn it. But, don't be fooled by the entry point. Be ready for someone to say "let's do that Kenny Dorham intro where he does the thing" and don't be the guy that says "who's Kenny Dorham". Be ready to be vibed or seriously passively agressively screwed with. "You've got the Real Book, cool. Turn to Body and Soul, but we're going to play it in Db as a blistering 6/8 Samba, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3..." Or, "let's do the Coltrane Changes on this." Or worse, they'll just play them and expect you to hear and adjust.

Not to bring you down, but that's my honest answer to you question having asked it and then gone out to find my own answer. I've been 100% jazz on upright for about 7 years now. It's working out great, but I still get humbled every few months. I don't know when that will stop.

There is a Jazz Technique forum on the doublebass side that might be useful to you, just FYI.

Troy

[Fishbrain]

Thanks Troy, all carefully taken into consideration.

Very much appreciated

[Chad.mundt]

Originally Posted by TroyK

You know...I'll give you my input as someone who played a EBG in various formats of non-jazz bands for about 20 years before getting into Jazz and switching to doublebass. When I started playing "Moondance", I starting thinking I could play jazz. I see this a lot with people moving into jazz as well, usually from guitar, bass or drums. For that matter brass bands or classical piano training.

The good news is that it can be done. Lot's of people do it. But, understanding technically how to play jazz isn't going to be enough to help you pull it off with real jazz players. What is?

Step 1) Listen to Jazz...A LOT. I have grown to LOATH playing with competient musicians who claim that they can play jazz, but aren't rooted in it. There is so much to the music, interplay between musicians, referrences to famous and not-so-famous recordings, etc that is the common language of jazz. How can you meet your bandmates on a gig and play whatever gets called and not have it appear obvious to the audience or other musicians? Steep yourself in jazz. I can't for the life of my figure out why people who don't listen to jazz, insist on playing it (except for the work, of course). You may be an excpetion, but I'm speaking broadly.

Step 2) Play jazz with a lot other people. Find casual playing opportunities and work yourself up to taking whatever call comes your way. There is a whole spoken and musical vocabulary that exists between jazz musicians that is as important as your technical abilities to play through chord changes.

Step 3) Those books referrences and even a teacher are all good. Consider that 50% of what you need to know. The other half is organic and can only be found above.

When I first get together with a guitarist, pianist or singer I can tell in the first 8 bars if they really have a jazz background or not and the guys who you're going to want to play with will care. Be respectful of them and yourself and if it's something you decide that you want to do, it's obtainable. How hard is it to play? I don't know anything about you, but you could probably do it on some level and you could certainly learn it. But, don't be fooled by the entry point. Be ready for someone to say "let's do that Kenny Dorham intro where he does the thing" and don't be the guy that says "who's Kenny Dorham". Be ready to be vibed or seriously passively agressively screwed with. "You've got the Real Book, cool. Turn to Body and Soul, but we're going to play it in Db as a blistering 6/8 Samba, 1, 2, 1, 2, 3..." Or, "let's do the Coltrane Changes on this." Or worse, they'll just play them and expect you to hear and adjust.

Not to bring you down, but that's my honest answer to you question having asked it and then gone out to find my own answer. I've been 100% jazz on upright for about 7 years now. It's working out great, but I still get humbled every few months. I don't know when that will stop.

There is a Jazz Technique forum on the doublebass side that might be useful to you, just FYI.

Troy

+1, especially on how players expect you to know what they're talking about when they talk about Trane "Body & Soul" or Metheny "Giant Steps".

A great teacher of mine once told me that it takes five years of studying jazz before you start to LEARN how to play jazz, and one of those years has to be spent playing jazz for other people.

[DocBop]

The most important thing is Jazz is your ear. That's why it takes so long to become a good Jazz player. It's not just learning Jazz theory and the technique the play the chords and scales and analyze tunes. But to hear it so you know why you are selecting the notes or scale your playing. Also in the Jazz big leagues there is no such thing as standard. Tunes are just a launching point players are changing thing with subsitution and chord colors. You have to hear it. Also a lot about being a good accompaniest when someone else is soloing. Sometime in the solo they are changing things, if you follow them sometimes it good and sometimes its bad. You follow them and you have defeated thier outside sound just became inside. So you have communiate and get to know other players.

Its all ears. You hear about Cut session. They are Jazz jams and usually good players. They expect you to know tunes no Real Books and they will change things up on the bandstand to see what a player can do. You screw up at a Cut session and you may not get to play for another six months.

If you really want to learn to play Jazz find a good teacher and it doesn't necessarly have to be a bass teacher. Get something to record youself at home with. Get a keyboard to play chords on and hear was different scales sound like against them. Find a some other wanting to learn to jam with so you can play and experiment in a friendly enviroment. Be patient it is a lifetime process their is always somethng to learn or try. I almost forgot transcibe, transcribe, transcibe. That teaches the ear, develops the feel, and builds a catalog of ideas to expand into your own.

Ya do it because you love it.

[SteveC]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

I would go for the Sher Real Books - they are used much more in the UK than the others.

I wish they'd use these more in the US. I hate those "black market" books everyone feels they need to use here. It's like a rite of passage or something. Use the crappy, hard to read books instead of the easy to read books with suggested lines, intros, lyrice, horn backgrounds, etc. It's bull.

Jazz is as hard or easy as the guys you are playing with.