I play bass but not a "bassist" need advice.

[badstonebass]

I have been a semi pro musician for 30+ years...most of those years as a guitarist.

5 years ago I started a gig as Gene Simmons in a KISS Trib. of course I had to play bass. I set up a rig and configured my sound around his. I only played bass when learning KISS tunes. I played with a pick ala' Geno. I was happy with my Gene sound.

Now I am the bass player in a classic rock band. I now HATE the sound of my bass. I want to become a better bassist as well. I have learned that though I play bass.....I know nothing of the instrument. Sure I can get by with the music we play but I want to be GOOD....not adequate.

What pearls of wisdom can some real bassists give me to improve my overall sound and to think like a bassist.

My Rig: Sansamp Bass driver, QSC 1450, Avatar 4x10, Punisher bass and Precision with EMGs.

Stainless strings

I find my sound has no real power. I can get loud, but PLEASANT the sound is not. Fret noise is heavy with or without a pick.

I would like a warmer more even tone to my sound. I want all the notes to be even in volume and clarity. i find the bottom end farty with this rig. would compression help?

I am a above average guitarist and find my lack of talent with the bass very disturbing. I really want to improve FOR MY OWN personal pride. Suggestions please.

[flatwoundfender]

For classic rock sound, big with not fret noise, get some flatwound strings and raise your action up. Cut the mids, cut the treble (you want more of this than the mids) and boost the bass so you're almost too boomy, but not quite. As far as playing it's your job to make the lead players/singers sound good, not to show off. The most important thing is the groove, don't play anything extra until that's held down.

[canopener]

Originally Posted by badstonebass

I have been a semi pro musician for 30+ years...most of those years as a guitarist.

5 years ago I started a gig as Gene Simmons in a KISS Trib. of course I had to play bass. I set up a rig and configured my sound around his. I only played bass when learning KISS tunes. I played with a pick ala' Geno. I was happy with my Gene sound.

Now I am the bass player in a classic rock band. I now HATE the sound of my bass. I want to become a better bassist as well. I have learned that though I play bass.....I know nothing of the instrument. Sure I can get by with the music we play but I want to be GOOD....not adequate.

What pearls of wisdom can some real bassists give me to improve my overall sound and to think like a bassist.

My Rig: Sansamp Bass driver, QSC 1450, Avatar 4x10, Punisher bass and Precision with EMGs.

Stainless strings

I find my sound has no real power. I can get loud, but PLEASANT the sound is not. Fret noise is heavy with or without a pick.

I would like a warmer more even tone to my sound. I want all the notes to be even in volume and clarity. i find the bottom end farty with this rig. would compression help?

I am a above average guitarist and find my lack of talent with the bass very disturbing. I really want to improve FOR MY OWN personal pride. Suggestions please.

Try playing around with the settings on the Sansamp. Maybe you need to turn the drive down, or change the battery if you are getting "farty." I can get a great tone out of my Sansamp with the pedal's eq flat and the amp's eq set to flat.

[tZer]

In addition to flatwoundfender's suggestion... and I may get flamed for this, but playing with a pick is probably going always 'color' your sound making it more 'bright' then normal and giving it a 'picky' attack.

Now before the flaming starts, I don't think there is anything wrong with using a pick. But my experience is that a pick gives you are really crip attack and doesn't provide the same amout of 'meat' to your tone as your fingers do.

When I do play with a pick I love the sound! But I don't choose to use a pick when I am trying to play most classic rock. I love Chris Squire's sound - and JPJ has been know to pick a few notes, so I am not anti-pick at all.

So you may want to try developing fingerstyle and see how that impacts your overall tone. It may go a long way towards 'de-grindifying' your gritty, metally sound. It also can't hurt to have that technique in your took kit.

[nicoli]

Originally Posted by badstonebass

I would like a warmer more even tone to my sound. I want all the notes to be even in volume and clarity. i find the bottom end farty with this rig. would compression help?

Yep, I'd say compression is your friend for classic rock. Not a necessity, but I think it would help in your situation. It might get you sounding a little closer to the naturally compressed tube amps of the day. Mids are your friend. If your bottom end is farting out, try cutting the highs rather than boosting the lows.

[flatwoundfender]

Originally Posted by nicoli

Yep, I'd say compression is your friend for classic rock. Not a necessity, but I think it would help in your situation. It might get you sounding a little closer to the naturally compressed tube amps of the day. Mids are your friend. If your bottom end is farting out, try cutting the highs rather than boosting the lows.

i'm pretty sure the scooped setting was pretty popular in those days. Mids are generally what create the farting sounds.

[SuperDuck]

I would say get rid of the EMG pickup, and use some nickel wound strings or maybe even flats.

[Sundogue]

My guess is that since you've played guitar for so long, that you are attempting to get an "overdrive" tone you've long grown accustomed to.

I'm not sure about that, but...unlike what you may have tried with guitar, think "clean" sound when playing bass. Keep the Pre-Gain down and boost the post (the exact opposite you might be used to with guitar).

Secondly, just because you play bass doesn't mean that the "Bass" knob should be way up and the "Treble" knob should be way down. Again, think "clean".

You want only enough "bass" tone to give the notes some meat. You will probably want more mids in a band situation than you would when playing alone. Typically what sounds good playing alone, sounds muddy, or just gets lost, in a full band setup.

Also, you kind of have to deprogram yourself a bit. Typically (and Lord knows this is not always the case), guitar players turned bass player still think like a guitar player. Playing bass requires you to think more in terms of the "groove" and playing "in the pocket" the drummer gives you. Think about what you used to play on top of when you played guitar...that's your role now. Also...less, is often more...so don't try to fill in every space with something. There is a lot to be said for the notes you don't play.

[Intune]

"I find my sound has no real power. I can get loud, but PLEASANT the sound is not. Fret noise is heavy with or without a pick."

One of my gigs is with a great git player who sometimes messes around & plays his bass when writing songs. He has a MIM j and that thing sounded terrible and was unplayable because of the action. I use a pretty hard attack sometimes and thus have a med-high action but his was so low that every string buzzed horribly. He said that he wanted it to feel like a git action and I informed him that these strings are a "bit" fatter and can't be laying on the frets. I fixed him up, it sounds like a bass now.

I think your action may be too low. Try adjusting the bridge & saddles with NO amplification. Every fret, every string. Then intonate & tweak. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Good luck!

[badstonebass]

Thanks for all the advice.

As far as playing I'm ok. I know what the bass is supposed to do. In fact I love the bass so I don't have any problems being the "bass player". We try and play all the cover tunes "exact" so you won't find me stepping outta line. I can hang on B for a whole song if it requires it.

My sound is where I really needed the help.

I can hang with all the advice. I have been practicing fingerstyle and it is coming along....however it has't helped the clanging. I hear great pick players like McCartney, Schacher, and Wilkerson so I know there are greats on both sides of the aisle. I will work on the action and try the nickelwounds.

Amp tweaking is also probably in order. This gives me something to go on from guys who are in the know.

By the way...I don't get the drop the EMG's. Are they considered crappy? I always thought they sounded good.

[flatwoundfender]

Originally Posted by badstonebass

Thanks for all the advice.

As far as playing I'm ok. I know what the bass is supposed to do. In fact I love the bass so I don't have any problems being the "bass player". We try and play all the cover tunes "exact" so you won't find me stepping outta line. I can hang on B for a whole song if it requires it.

My sound is where I really needed the help.

I can hang with all the advice. I have been practicing fingerstyle and it is coming along....however it has't helped the clanging. I hear great pick players like McCartney, Schacher, and Wilkerson so I know there are greats on both sides of the aisle. I will work on the action and try the nickelwounds.

Amp tweaking is also probably in order. This gives me something to go on from guys who are in the know.

By the way...I don't get the drop the EMG's. Are they considered crappy? I always thought they sounded good.

The emgs are modern brighter sounding pickups if I'm correct, so they don't really fit in that classick rock scope. McCartney used flats which is part of the reason you don't really hear the metal in his sound.

[morf]

I'd say get a fender and play with your fingers.

[SnakeAnthony]

I agree with most of whats said here. Take your bass to get a setup at your local shop. Have them adjust your tuss-rod, raise your action, set up the intonation properly, and dress the frets if the bass needs it.
Second, try some nickel strings. Flats would probably do you best, but its a preferance thing really. Maybe try some half-rounds.
Thirdly, your allowed to play with a pick. Many great players get the best tone out of a pick. Me personally? I hate playing with a pick, but I look at all the classic players like McCartney that used one. In fact, look into Jerod Reynolds, who plays bass for Ben Folds. He gets a great Rock tone, and even throws on the distortion every now and again, and he does it all with a pick.
Fourthly, get rid of the EMG. Its not helping your sound, in fact that may be part of whats killing it so bad. Look into some Seymour Duncan/Basslines or maybe a Nordstrand for that real vintage vibe (I'm actually going to be purchasing a P bass pickup from Stan Hinsley, the owner of HAS Sound, soon. He hand winds his own pickups. I'll post a review when it gets here. Check out www.has-sound.com)
Try to mess with your settings some. Try some new stuff on the SansAmp, and on your head's EQ. Also, look into compression, it is your friend.
Lastly, don't fear Mids. Lots of rock & roll bass is tone with the low end pumped and everything else cut down, but Mids will help you to be heard in the mix. Good luck with the search for your sound. Its what all of us here are doing

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by SuperDuck

I would say get rid of the EMG pickup, and use some nickel wound strings or maybe even flats.

I agree on the trashing of the EMG's. I had a P bass that showed up with EMG's in place and it sounded pretty lame. I replaced the original pickups and it has a lot more punch, tone and character.

Stay with round wounds, and work with your amp's EQ. I'd suggest part of the problem is the Sansamp too.

[badstonebass]

I was listening to the tone that I really am looking for last night.

What I really want is a Mel Schacher circa I'm Your Captain type of tone. Like the first KISS album or Dressed to Kill. That Bad Company tone. the tone of JPJ on ZepII. Maybe you guys think that kind of tone sucks but that's what I am looking for. All warm and fuzzy with every note being heard.

You know that bass tone that just kills like the opening of Foot Stompin' Music.

Is it just as simple as an AMPEG cranked?

I hope that the EMG's are not the answer....that means I'd have to replce pickups on TWO basses

I will start with the setup and strings(the least expensive improvement) and go from there.

The anti-Sansamp sentiment really intrigues me. What are the thoughts on that?

I think the amp considerations may be the real deal. I love my front of house sound that comes through the PA. It is being DI's through the Sansamp.

Again thanks for the real help.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by badstonebass

What I really want is a Mel Schacher circa I'm Your Captain type of tone. Like the first KISS album or Dressed to Kill. That Bad Company tone. the tone of JPJ on ZepII. Maybe you guys think that kind of tone sucks but that's what I am looking for. All warm and fuzzy with every note being heard.

You know that bass tone that just kills like the opening of Foot Stompin' Music.

Sounds like you are wanting some flatwounds. They'll give you some real solid fundamental without the overtones. You can somewhat get that sound with roundwounds, but you'll need to cut the highs and upper mids some. With flats, you'll get that sound naturally from the strings themselves. Then you can dial in some highs and upper mids to give them a bit of bite without getting buzzy or clanky.

[Sutton]

Originally Posted by SuperDuck

I would say get rid of the EMG pickup, and use some nickel wound strings or maybe even flats.

Agreed, swap out the EMGs with Barts

[Philbiker]

IMO you'll get a lot better by just playing, whether practicing or gigging. The more time you spend in you band the more you'll get accustomed to the subtleties of the bass. As you have already learned the instrument is all about musical subtleties.

+1 on the nickelwound strings for classic rock. I love 'em.

Have you considered a tube amp? A '70s era Fender Bassman doesn't cost much and sounds like a million bucks. 100-135 watts doesn't seem like much, but jam that sucker up, get some barely (or un) preceptible even order distortion from the power tube section and you've really got something special. There are also many very good modern tube amps. As a guitarrist you should appreciate tubes.

Nothing wrong with the pick. I personally will chime in as another non-EMG guy. Though I really like their passive EMG-HZ pickups the "classic" active EMG has never done much for me personally. though they are very high quality pickups.

[WalterBush]

Just to further muddy the mix--

I love my EMG's, and eventually every bass I own will have an EMG active system.

I don't like the classic vintage tone, though. I like something that sounds vaguely like Geddy Lee or Chris Squire right out the box, lots of mids and highs. In a classic rock context, I have to roll off significant treble on the bass, and then do it again on the amp. Since I play tube amps mostly, rolling off a little bass and cranking the amp to make up for lost thump comes close to a more vintage-y sound, but EMGs sound like EMGs, not P-pups or a J-bass. Replacing them, or going all-tube for your amp, are expensive options, but will probably get you a lot closer to what you're looking for than any other single thing you could do. Just my opinion.

[CamMcIntyre]

I dig your setup, but-like what has been said give Nickel Rounds or flats a try. If you try flats and think they're too "dead"-a set of ground wounds [thinking of GHS Brite Flats] might work well.

Amp wise-i like your setup. In my big rig i'm running an RBI & an RPM. I set my amp flat and then start tweaking it until it starts to sound how i like. Then, i try to schedule a jam w/the guitarist to tweak the tone from a good on my own tone to a good tone within a ground. Typically, i end up boosting the bass and mids-i like a really cutting tone [hince playing a StingRay5 w/steels].

IMO, a P or J would be ideal for you. If you don't want to spend a lot of money- an SX or a MIM Fender would work. I'm actually tempted to pickup a SX P to turn into my own version of a Jamerson bass [get one w/covers or buy a cover + flats], so that i can fulfill that ultra fat tone that i'm hearing in my head for some songs/settings.

Playing with your fingers would be a good thing to learn in order to be a well rounded bass player on the whole. 98% of the time-i play with my fingers and then the other 1% is arco [i'm a doubler], .5% is slap, and .5% is pick.

congrats on being in a few bands.

take it easy.