I practice music to play music...

stratovani · #1 11-19-2009, 06:16 PM

...and I play music to practice music.

That's been my touchstone for all the years I've been playing, since 1972. Maybe it's my ADHD, but I find practicing scales and modes to a metronome the epitome of boring, and if I do attempt it it usually lasts for a minute or so. But play a song, and I can groove to it all night long. Just now I've been playing along with some songs from Rush's Signals, and I get more out of it than almost anything else I can think of. I like to set up a song on my computer and play along to it, it works my sense of groove and time better than simply running scales. It works the same way with my church music, I practice the songs to play the songs, and I play the songs to practice the songs.

Seems to me the point of this whole exercise is to make music, not to see who can play a G# Phrygian scale the fastest!

LiquidMidnight · #2 11-19-2009, 09:23 PM

I don't know what the empirical evidence (if there isn't any) says, but in my experience, making your practice regime musical goes a lot further than woodshedding endlessly on drills and excersises. When learning to play piano and trumpet, I remember that after I learned the mechanics and basic foundation of the instrument, my introductory instructional booklets had actual, albeit simple, songs within the first couple of pages.

::::BASSIST:::: · #3 11-19-2009, 09:26 PM

I'm the same way. I'd actually like to practice more theory kinds of things, but I find I only practice things that will help me onstage...

However, it does take me longer to learn new songs because my theory is not so strong.

Godbody · #4 11-20-2009, 09:17 AM

I was the same way for quite some time; practice consisted of working on songs that got more and more complex.

What really made me work on scales arpeggios, metronome work and hand exercises was being forced to write original music and bass lines. Without a basic knowledge of how music and the mechanics of playing worked, at first I was basically rewriting other songs for my purposes. Once I finally had the tools to put together music in interesting ways, my bass lines got MUCH better.

So did my ability to hear pitch and read chord charts. It just plain makes it easier to communicate as a musician.

Ed Fuqua · #5 11-20-2009, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stratovani

...and I play music to practice music.

That's been my touchstone for all the years I've been playing, since 1972. Maybe it's my ADHD, but I find practicing scales and modes to a metronome the epitome of boring, and if I do attempt it it usually lasts for a minute or so. But play a song, and I can groove to it all night long.

Can you give some idea as to the arc of your music career, given this approach?

Ed Fuqua · #6 11-22-2009, 08:58 AM

I guess not.

stratovani · #7 11-22-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Can you give some idea as to the arc of your music career, given this approach?

Sorry, I don't understand what the arc of my musical career has to do with how I learn music. If you're trying to establish whether or not I'm an "authority" in the field, then I'm not and never said I was. I'm simply stating what works for me, nothing more.

Ed Fuqua · #8 11-22-2009, 01:41 PM

Doesn't really have anything to do with "how (I) learn music", but has quite a bit to do with the accuracy of your assessment that "practicing scales and modes to a metronome" doesn't have anything to do with making music and is only about seeing who "can play a G# Phrygian scale the fastest".

And it also has a pretty fair bit to do with how someone who reads your "advice" can assess whether or not it might have any personal meaning for them. Kind of like golf, you ask for advice you want to know if the person you're talking to is a pro, a highly ranked amateur or has a handicap in the 90s.

You got something that works for you and has given you precisely the return you want from it. That would not work for me and what I want. I have a place I want to get to musically and that takes a LOT of work - ear training, understanding, physical approach, improvisational exercises, playing - OFF the stand so that when I get ON the stand all I have to do is get out of the way and listen and have what I'm hearing guide my interaction with the musicians I'm playing with. And just "to set up a song on my computer and play along to it" ain't gonna make it by itself.

I'm certainly nowhere near the top of the pyramid here in NYC. I'm getting much closer to my own unique voice, but there are folks here who have a much deeper conception of this music than I do and a closer connection to their individual voice. But the only way to get there is to put the WORK in. PLAY on the stand, WORK in the shed.

You don't have to want to play for the Yankees, but if you do, getting together Saturdays in the park and batting it around for a couple of hours isn't going to get you there.

stratovani · #9 11-22-2009, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Doesn't really have anything to do with "how (I) learn music", but has quite a bit to do with the accuracy of your assessment that "practicing scales and modes to a metronome" doesn't have anything to do with making music and is only about seeing who "can play a G# Phrygian scale the fastest".

And it also has a pretty fair bit to do with how someone who reads your "advice" can assess whether or not it might have any personal meaning for them. Kind of like golf, you ask for advice you want to know if the person you're talking to is a pro, a highly ranked amateur or has a handicap in the 90s.

You got something that works for you and has given you precisely the return you want from it. That would not work for me and what I want. I have a place I want to get to musically and that takes a LOT of work - ear training, understanding, physical approach, improvisational exercises, playing - OFF the stand so that when I get ON the stand all I have to do is get out of the way and listen and have what I'm hearing guide my interaction with the musicians I'm playing with. And just "to set up a song on my computer and play along to it" ain't gonna make it by itself.

I'm certainly nowhere near the top of the pyramid here in NYC. I'm getting much closer to my own unique voice, but there are folks here who have a much deeper conception of this music than I do and a closer connection to their individual voice. But the only way to get there is to put the WORK in. PLAY on the stand, WORK in the shed.

You don't have to want to play for the Yankees, but if you do, getting together Saturdays in the park and batting it around for a couple of hours isn't going to get you there.

First of all, it really does have everything to do with how I learn music. I'm not presuming to tell anyone how to practice or learn how to play music, I'm simply conveying how I prefer to do it. And if someone misconstrues what I say as "advice", then there's not much I can do about that. This is what I have found that works for me, others may have found the same, obviously you have found it wanting for yourself. Fine, so be it.

Ed, I wish you nothing but success in the future in your quest for your own unique voice. As for myself (playing for the Yankees), I'm 55, in a low-paying job, living in a small town, about as far from the big time as can be, and the prospects of being the bassist for the Rolling Stones are about as good as winning the lottery. But I have a wife who loves me, children who care for me, I play bass in church on Sunday morning, and I jam with friends on occasion. So life is as good as it'll get for me. And if I live to my life expectancy - 72 - I've got very little time left, so I plan to enjoy it - by practicing music to play music, and playing music to practice music.

kesslari · #10 11-22-2009, 06:53 PM

Fair enough,mate. Kind of cool to see 2 very different points of view, well explained with the goals they support, in a single thread.

Ed Fuqua · #11 11-22-2009, 08:38 PM

Your original post is much more black and white than your subsequent entries. Like I said you got something that works for you because you aren't really interested in getting in that deep, fine. But why do you feel the need to speak as if anybody doing work that WILL get them deeper is not interested in making music?
You don't want to practice, don't practice. But don't try to say that folks who do aren't making any music.

nortonrider · #12 11-22-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

But don't try to say that folks who do aren't making any music.

Is running scales over and over really making music?

I understand totally where the OP is coming from.
I know that personally I have learned more about song structure and chord progressions by playing along with the radio than I ever have woodshedding.

Ed Fuqua · #13 11-22-2009, 09:14 PM

No.
But why do you suppose that's what's going on? Is that all you hear when you listen to Peter Washington or Scott Colley or Neal Miner? Or do you need to speak derisively about it so that you can feel better about where you are, musically?

Not talking about music right now, but is there anything in your life that you are really, really good at? That you have a much deeper insight into and a much better handle on than pretty much anybody else around you?
How much work did you have to put in to get to that point? Were you just messing around or did you have knuckle down at some point and deal with doing work that wasn't "fun", that was hard, that you had to make a concerted effort to get through? And after you got through that work and got to the point that your involvement in whatever activity this wasn't work any more, but something that you could perform in such a way that anybody observing you could see NO effort, how did you feel about folks who described that as a waste of time?

Godbody · #14 11-23-2009, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nortonrider

Is running scales over and over really making music?

I understand totally where the OP is coming from.
I know that personally I have learned more about song structure and chord progressions by playing along with the radio than I ever have woodshedding.

Running scales helps vastly when you start to make your own music.

Song structure and chord progressions are great things to learn if you're in a rock/pop type band (and I've played along with plenty of CDs myself). But there's so much more to music theory out there! It's exciting when you learn something new that you can bring to the table in a band.

stratovani · #15 11-23-2009, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Your original post is much more black and white than your subsequent entries. Like I said you got something that works for you because you aren't really interested in getting in that deep, fine. But why do you feel the need to speak as if anybody doing work that WILL get them deeper is not interested in making music?
You don't want to practice, don't practice. But don't try to say that folks who do aren't making any music.

Well, I guess I'll have to explain myself, for the third time. All I'm saying is that "I play music to practice music, and I practice music to play music" works FOR ME. Practicing scales and modes over and over doesn't really work FOR ME. And I am by no means not putting a gun to anyone's head and saying you must do it my way or else. And I am NOT saying that anybody should not go deeper into music if they so choose. And I an certainly NOT saying that folks that do practice aren't making music. That's ridiculous. All I'm saying is what works for me. If you want to read something else in my posts, then fine. Nuff said, I'm done.

tlr1293 · #16 11-23-2009, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stratovani

Well, I guess I'll have to explain myself, for the third time. All I'm saying is that "I play music to practice music, and I practice music to play music" works FOR ME. Practicing scales and modes over and over doesn't really work FOR ME. And I am by no means not putting a gun to anyone's head and saying you must do it my way or else. And I am NOT saying that anybody should not go deeper into music if they so choose. And I an certainly NOT saying that folks that do practice aren't making music. That's ridiculous. All I'm saying is what works for me. If you want to read something else in my posts, then fine. Nuff said, I'm done.

I don't think you need to worry much - every thread has its' trolls.

I am quite your opposite in that I am just starting out (42 years old) but also absolutely hate the boring scales and metronome routine...
So I am looking for another way to play music and learn this wonderful instrument we call BASS GUITAR!

You're not alone dude - scales bite! But they do have their place...

uethanian · #17 11-23-2009, 04:09 PM

this reminds me a bit of some different stuff i'm studying music-wise...for instance in the north indian classical tradition, it's common for someone to practice 10+ years before performing on stage. on the other hand, in indonesian gamelan you can be a complete novice and still fulfill some function in performance.

so where does contemporary western music fit in? hard to say. you might argue for intense practice if you play jazz because it will "make you a better musician," but what you are really doing is fulfilling the demands of the music to the best of your ability. different genre's entail different types and levels of demand.

bleeding · #18 12-26-2009, 08:15 PM

I was going to get on here and roast Ed, but he makes it too easy - and I hate to kick a guy when he has already made an ass of himself.

Good post strat.

Ed Fuqua · #19 12-26-2009, 09:09 PM

Feel free, Sparky.

wazzel · #20 12-26-2009, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stratovani

...and I play music to practice music.

That's been my touchstone for all the years I've been playing, since 1972. Maybe it's my ADHD, but I find practicing scales and modes to a metronome the epitome of boring, and if I do attempt it it usually lasts for a minute or so. But play a song, and I can groove to it all night long. Just now I've been playing along with some songs from Rush's Signals, and I get more out of it than almost anything else I can think of. I like to set up a song on my computer and play along to it, it works my sense of groove and time better than simply running scales. It works the same way with my church music, I practice the songs to play the songs, and I play the songs to practice the songs.

Seems to me the point of this whole exercise is to make music, not to see who can play a G# Phrygian scale the fastest!

Practicing along is the most fun way to practice. If you are going to be playing only covers then it is probably the best use of your time.

It will limit you in other situation like composition and improving over chord charts.

Personally composition is not of much importance to me so learning that is not a priority. What is important to me is being able to improv over chord charts. With my church gig I play lots of songs I have never heard with just charts. Being able to construct proper arpeggios on the fly is a lifesaver. I spent lots of time learning how to do this.

I have no idea how to use any of the modes, but a can cover any chord since I, more or less, understand how they are constructed.