I think I want to be a singer instead...

[Rockin John]

Did an open mic last night where there was an excess of bassists. Sure, I went up and did my bit on bass. But at one point they were sort of a vocalist so off I went again. I sort-a surprised myself a bit because I've never done the vocalist only thing before.

Normally, as bass and lead vocals, I'm fine so expected to struggle here. You know how it is, somehow with the bass on and a mic stand and stuff between you and the audience, you feel kind-a safe! Well I do, anyway. It's like there is some kind of a barrier there.

But I didn't struggle at all. No sir!

I absolutely loved it!

My ladyfriend said I carried on as though I'd been doing it for years. So I've just been in touch with my local college about their voice training classes (could use them anyway) and we'll have to see where this takes me.

Might have a load of kit to sell.....

Any others experienced this sort of thing?

Best.

John

[mjolnir]

You gotta do what you gotta do. If it makes you happy, go for it.

Best o' luck to ye, sir.

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by Rockin John

Did an open mic last night where there was an excess of bassists. Sure, I went up and did my bit on bass. But at one point they were sort of a vocalist so off I went again. I sort-a surprised myself a bit because I've never done the vocalist only thing before.

Normally, as bass and lead vocals, I'm fine so expected to struggle here. You know how it is, somehow with the bass on and a mic stand and stuff between you and the audience, you feel kind-a safe! Well I do, anyway. It's like there is some kind of a barrier there.

But I didn't struggle at all. No sir!

I absolutely loved it!

My ladyfriend said I carried on as though I'd been doing it for years. So I've just been in touch with my local college about their voice training classes (could use them anyway) and we'll have to see where this takes me.

Might have a load of kit to sell.....

Any others experienced this sort of thing?

Best.

John

Colledge is probably the worse place to get vocal lessons, they will teach you to, "sing from the diaphragm," which is a horrible technique and probably push opera on you. You may get lucky and find a teacher at colledge that teaches technique the really work but I doubt it. I've been to vocal lesons since I was 17 and, "classically," trained vocal instructors were alwasy the most useless.

[Rockin John]

ric1312 said:

Colledge is probably the worse place to get vocal lessons, they will teach you to, "sing from the diaphragm," which is a horrible technique and probably push opera on you. You may get lucky and find a teacher at colledge that teaches technique the really work but I doubt it. I've been to vocal lesons since I was 17 and, "classically," trained vocal instructors were alwasy the most useless.

Oh dear! Well, I don't know, I'll just have to see. This is a 'just for fun' vocal training course lasting 10 weeks with 1-to-1 tuition. It's where amateur singers go for guidance and help. I know a frontman/singer who went on such a course and found it good. I'll give it a go and see what happens.



John

[crazyguy832]

Umm... what's wrong with singing from the diaphragm? All that's doing is taking the stress off your throat and giving most of the muscle work to your gut. Projection comes from the diaphragm, not the throat. That's what they teach you.

It's, like, the #1 principal with screaming.

[jive1]

I don't see why you would sell your bass gear to take up singing. The great thing about singing is you can still play bass. Those are two in demand positions in a band, and a person who can do both is an asset.

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by crazyguy832

Umm... what's wrong with singing from the diaphragm? All that's doing is taking the stress off your throat and giving most of the muscle work to your gut. Projection comes from the diaphragm, not the throat. That's what they teach you.

It's, like, the #1 principal with screaming.

Singing from the diaphragm, or the action of the diaphragm is supposed to be reflex action by a voice well placed. NOT done purposely. Doing it purposely is more like shouting and hurts the voice. Singers who use this technique and have to sing every day hurt their voices. FYI, "singing from the diaphragm," was made up by a failed opera singer..............projection does not come from the diaphgram is comes from resonance in the head cavities.

[Matt Till]

Originally Posted by ric1312

Singing from the diaphragm, or the action of the diaphragm is supposed to be reflex action by a voice well placed. NOT done purposely. Doing it purposely is more like shouting and hurts the voice. Singers who use this technique and have to sing every day hurt their voices. FYI, "singing from the diaphragm," was made up by a failed opera singer..............projection does not come from the diaphgram is comes from resonance in the head cavities.

Who is this failed opera singer?

Using your head cavities for resonance results in a nasally tone, if you want to be the next Billy Corgan, be my guest.

[lemur821]

Originally Posted by Matt Till

Who is this failed opera singer?

Using your head cavities for resonance results in a nasally tone, if you want to be the next Billy Corgan, be my guest.

I don't know about diaphragms, but this is ridiculous.

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by Matt Till

Who is this failed opera singer?

Using your head cavities for resonance results in a nasally tone, if you want to be the next Billy Corgan, be my guest.

I'm sorry you just don't know what your talking about. Geoff tate, Dio, Rob Halford, Chris Cornell: all singers who use their head cavities for resonance.

Billy corgan is squeezing out his voice through his nose, when you know how to do it right it's gentle and relaxed.

Don't remember the name, but it was quite a while ago when opera was the height of singing. A failed opera singer invented the diaphramatic attack while watching good singers and thinking the movement of the belly/diaphragm was responsible for the whole voice.

There's more too it all, but basically consiously pushing air out by clenching in the belly simply results in a loud pushed out tone that is very forceful and wooden and eventually hurts the voice.

[crazyguy832]

Obviously you don't clench the belly. Using the diaphragm is perfectly natural. The reason I mentioned it is because... what else pushes the air out? You're either going to generate power from your gut or your throat. And, quite frankly, it's a whole lot safer to do that from your diaphragm than your throat (at least in regards to screaming).

By the way, you're also the first person I've ever heard who has told me not to use the diaphragm.

[McHaven]

Originally Posted by ric1312

Colledge is probably the worse place to get vocal lessons, they will teach you to, "sing from the diaphragm," which is a horrible technique and probably push opera on you. You may get lucky and find a teacher at colledge that teaches technique the really work but I doubt it. I've been to vocal lesons since I was 17 and, "classically," trained vocal instructors were alwasy the most useless.

Is college a good place to learn to spell at least?

[Rockin John]

I'm beginning to wonder if I should have posted this at all....

What began (at least for me) as a light hearted little post seems to have turned into a slagging match over the use of the diaphram.

All I want to do is take some training to improve whatever vocal skills I have at present. I can't afford a proper voice coach and this course seems to represent a start, at least. If anyone on TB has any better ideas, please let me know!

I do remember taking half a dozen free coaching sessions some years ago from the master of a Barbershop choir. (I love B/shop, btw). The master seemed to place great store on singing from the diaphram.

For Jive1. I'm not really selling my gear.

John

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by crazyguy832

Obviously you don't clench the belly. Using the diaphragm is perfectly natural. The reason I mentioned it is because... what else pushes the air out? You're either going to generate power from your gut or your throat. And, quite frankly, it's a whole lot safer to do that from your diaphragm than your throat (at least in regards to screaming).

By the way, you're also the first person I've ever heard who has told me not to use the diaphragm.

The diaphragm moves, when singing, but it should be a reflex not a conscious action. The, "sing from the diaphragm," thing is a very bad technique that has just been passed down and parroted.

[Matt Till]

Originally Posted by ric1312

I'm sorry you just don't know what your talking about. Geoff tate, Dio, Rob Halford, Chris Cornell: all singers who use their head cavities for resonance.

Billy corgan is squeezing out his voice through his nose, when you know how to do it right it's gentle and relaxed.

Don't remember the name, but it was quite a while ago when opera was the height of singing. A failed opera singer invented the diaphramatic attack while watching good singers and thinking the movement of the belly/diaphragm was responsible for the whole voice.

There's more too it all, but basically consiously pushing air out by clenching in the belly simply results in a loud pushed out tone that is very forceful and wooden and eventually hurts the voice.

Eh, if you say so. I'll let my girlfriend know that her vocal teachers have taught her wrong over the years: sing from your head, she'll love that.

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by Matt Till

Eh, if you say so. I'll let my girlfriend know that her vocal teachers have taught her wrong over the years: sing from your head, she'll love that.

Well, it's a little more complicated than that, it's not really, "sing from the head."

But, I can tell you after using both techniques that using resonance as a focal point works much better than consciously pushing air out using the diaphragm.

It's not that singing from the diaphgram is wrong, it's that their is a better way to sing. Often time singers happen upon using resonance accidently by using the diaphgram method and everything just falls into place, but often times singers who learn to sing from the diaphragm either never learn to sing well or overpower and hurt their voice. When you push from the diaphgram it causese excess tension in the vocal folds because they have to resist agains a lot of air.

When you rely on resonance, the diaphgram moves by reflex and the pressure is automatically balances. Sure my diaphgram moves and compresses when I sing, but I'm not thinking about it, I'm thinking about where my voice is placed in my head and the diaphragm moves by reflex.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by Rockin John

I'm beginning to wonder if I should have posted this at all....

What began (at least for me) as a light hearted little post seems to have turned into a slagging match over the use of the diaphram.

Welcome to TalkBass! (Even though you've been here longer than I have... )

Originally Posted by Rockin John

All I want to do is take some training to improve whatever vocal skills I have at present. I can't afford a proper voice coach and this course seems to represent a start, at least. If anyone on TB has any better ideas, please let me know!

No guidance I can share at this time, as I'm rather in the same situation as you, having recently determined to get some vocal training. However, as I live in New York City and happen to know a number of professional singers with whom I can network, I'm reasonably sure of being able to find a suitable teacher or coach pretty soon.

I'd just like to encourage you to go for it. Good singers are always in demand. And if you truly love it and have some real talent and potential, then by all means make the most of it!

MM

[Rockin John]

Thanks for the encouragement, Matt. It's appreciated.

New York? Well if you can't find it in NYC then I guess it doesn't exist on the planet... Here in rural, middle England things are slightly different!!!!

I've no idea whether / not I've vocal talent. I can sing for sure, and my vocal prowess improves as I use my voice. But I'm not a good singer, if you see what I mean. My voice needs developing and voice lessons seems the way to go. Actually, the college administrator for that subject called me last night: I booked in for when the new term starts in September.

As for being in demand, well it doesn't bother me too much. But I do recognise that as a fretless bass / lead vocalist I have some 'salability'. I don't do too bad a job at it and, for sure, there aren't too many guys doing what I do.

I hope you, too, get your vocal tuition.

Best.

John

[Deacon_Blues]

Good luck with the singing! Just listen to your body and you will be on the right track. It always tells you whether or not you're doing things correctly.

If you're new to singing (or sort of), you will likely gain a lot from lessons, even though you're a decent singer already. You will probably get a broader range and a wider "vocabulary" of different sounds that are useful. You might want to check out "complete vocal technique" as well, it's a good map of how the the voice works and what possibilities/limitations there is. Ric1312 will tell you CVT is BS, but me and thousands of other singers, including lots of professional ones of virtually all genres, would beg to differ...

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Good luck with the singing! Just listen to your body and you will be on the right track. It always tells you whether or not you're doing things correctly.

If you're new to singing (or sort of), you will likely gain a lot from lessons, even though you're a decent singer already. You will probably get a broader range and a wider "vocabulary" of different sounds that are useful. You might want to check out "complete vocal technique" as well, it's a good map of how the the voice works and what possibilities/limitations there is. Ric1312 will tell you CVT is BS, but me and thousands of other singers, including lots of professional ones of virtually all genres, would beg to differ...

Where are the thousands? When I checked out the site, all I saw was a bunch of people holding up diplomas and absolutlly 0 soudfiles of what this suppsedly great technique had done for their voices?