if the drummer is rushing and i keep up...

jonathan_matos5 · #1 08-21-2007, 06:41 PM

is it still a trainwreck

for some reason my drummer is good at odd meter and fast stuff but when we play a 4/4 slower song he rushes the tempo

if me and the guitard are the only people that notice is it still a trainwreck

John Wentzien · #2 08-21-2007, 06:56 PM

I worked with a drummer like that. I started calling him the "Russian Dragon". He was either rushin' or draggin' all over the place.

SpectorBass308 · #3 08-21-2007, 06:58 PM

Hit him over the head with a washing machine, that might fix his timing.

jonathan_matos5 · #4 08-21-2007, 07:03 PM

id hit him but he is safe in his fortress of drumitude

Em Toons · #5 08-21-2007, 07:04 PM

I guess there are three things I'd like to say:

1. You and the guitarist are probably not the only ones who notice.

2. Keeping up with the drummer will at least keep you sounding like a band. You've probably heard it a million times, but there is nothing more important for sounding professional than locking in with the drummer.

3. Tell your drummer to practice with a metronome.

Tempo is so important, and you are kind of at the mercy of the drummer. If you follow him, you can keep it together, but if he's erratic it brings down the whole band.

Hope you find this helpful.

John Wentzien · #6 08-21-2007, 07:07 PM

Suggest a metronome with an ear-piece till he gets the timing down.

jonathan_matos5 · #7 08-21-2007, 07:11 PM

to tell you the truth my timing sucked until i picked up bass.

i wouldn't say im perfect but a lot better than i was

skb5string · #8 08-21-2007, 07:17 PM

Pretty tipical with Drummers, I found ones that have had no formal training do just that, what is it with drummers and slow songs! Anyway, I play with one at church, he's young but has great time on most tunes, good latin rock/Jazz feel too, but slow it down below 100bpm or put it in 3/4, 6/8, 6/4 time with a slow tempo and forget it, its a lost cause. Constant tension with the tempo. I tell him, listen to tunes in slower meters, play along, get some lessons, buy a Metronome.

steve66 · #9 08-21-2007, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skb5string

Pretty tipical with Drummers, I found ones that have had no formal training do just that, what is it with drummers and slow songs! Anyway, I play with one at church, he's young but has great time on most tunes, good latin rock/Jazz feel too, but slow it down below 100bpm or put it in 3/4, 6/8, 6/4 time with a slow tempo and forget it, its a lost cause. Constant tension with the tempo. I tell him, listen to tunes in slower meters, play along, get some lessons, buy a Metronome.

The hardest thing for a drummer to do is play slowly. Your drummer need to listen to guys like the late John Bonham and Jeff Porcaro. These guys were great groove drummers and could play solid time regardless of tempo

gretschman · #10 08-21-2007, 10:33 PM

Playing very slowly is a real challenge for drummers. I used the earlier version of a device called "Tempo Ref" for a while, even on gigs, and it really helped my work at slow tempos.

One solution seems to be to subdivide the beat so that you can count faster, like turning "1,2,3,4" into "1 & uh, 2 & uh, 3 & uh, 4 & uh," etc.

And in our defense, drummers aren't the only ones who have problems with slow tempos.

And don't get me started on uptempo tunes.

Steve Clark · #11 08-22-2007, 09:25 AM

I've played with some great drummers lately. Even then the band can sometimes pick up. I try and pull it back if its rushing but keep in mind if you really take apart some music from the tape era you might find tempos drifting there. In this day and age of digital technology being able to play a steady meter/temp or with a click is part of the job.

Sometime players can overdo it as well. I did a jazz recording recently. The drummer and guitar player were in a separate booth with cans on. I was in the recording booth with the keyboard player without cans listening to the mix through the monitors and a vocalist doing ghost track behind me. On one tune the guitar player was back phrasing a ton on a Latin piece (because he wanted to hold the band back) while the drummer and I were holding it together it was tough with another back phrasing vocalist in my ear. The end result was good after a couple of takes but it really messed with my head/ears with all that going on. I actually like playing with a click. For the most part it would take an earthquake to knock me off it. But when the rest of the band can't stay on it you're no further ahead.

Looks like you can record what you are doing. You should listen back and hear if it feels good and grooves or can you feel the push and pull. Maybe the drummer will hear that as well.

Steve Clark · #12 08-22-2007, 09:28 AM

And I agree with everyone that slow ballads/grooves can be very challenging. If you pay together a lot it should get easier but sometimes playing with others for the first time can take a bit to sort out.

ALiP BoB · #13 08-22-2007, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonathan_matos5

id hit him but he is safe in his fortress of drumitude

LMAO!

ALiP BoB · #14 08-22-2007, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

Suggest a metronome with an ear-piece till he gets the timing down.

Yup. The whole point of the drummer to keep the time so yea, wth?

tadawson · #15 08-22-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALiP BoB

LMAO!

**Heh** The "cone of silence" for a drummer . . . .

- Tim

lowphatbass · #16 08-22-2007, 04:56 PM

I'm not sure from the pic but it looks like all your drummer has in his cage for monitoring is a set of cans. Sometimes you have to push people around a bit(in a musical fashion) when it comes to tempo. While I know it's a logistical problem to have a bass monitor in the drum cage you may have to come to some sort of compromise if your drummer can't keep time by himself. Many people think it's the drummer's sole responsibility to keep time but you're on the hook for it just as much as he is. Also, from the looks of your sanctuary(assuming it it)it shouldn't be to much trouble to pipe a click track into his cans during rehearsal which may be very educational for him.

oldrocker · #17 08-22-2007, 08:46 PM

I've played with a Russian Dragon - nice term

The problem with speeding up to keep up with the drummer is that it, in my case anyway, it tends to make him play even faster. This just increases the speed before the eventual train wreck. I call this situation thermal runnaway.

When I notice the drummer starting to increase the tempo I make a consious efort to keep the tempo even, not speed up. The drummer will usually lock in with me, keeping it together.

It would be easier playing with a drummer who could keep steady tempo, but I guess it's up to the bass and the drums to keep the beat together.

MysticMichael · #18 08-22-2007, 09:17 PM

Just because you're able to "keep up" with a drummer who's rushing, doesn't mean it actually sounds good - or that it's even acceptable. "Rushing" implies that the tempo isn't just fast and steady - it's an uncomfortable sense of constantly straining against the upper limits of the current tempo - whatever the tempo happens to be. And thus, the tempo probably is not truly steady - meaning that the whole rhythmic foundation of the piece is unstable, possibly erratic. That's as uncomfortable to listen to as it is to play...

I would suggest that merely succeeding in avoiding a complete train wreck is hardly any kind of musical victory. Just because you're able to hold it together doesn't mean it actually grooves...

I can't stand drummers who rush the tempo!

MM