I'm now a sound engineer..

Fassa Albrecht · #1 10-19-2008, 02:26 PM

...at church anyway.

I decided today in place of playing bass (due to my health issues) that I would instead work behind the mixing desk, helping with the mixing and recording of the band instead.

Anyone here also do PA/mixing work?

fenderhutz · #2 10-19-2008, 02:27 PM

Yes. In my home studio.

Fassa Albrecht · #3 10-19-2008, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenderhutz

Yes. In my home studio.

Any tips so I don't muck it up?

fenderhutz · #4 10-19-2008, 02:37 PM

Listen to the sound, for one. Also the "Gain" knob can be your enemy. You want to run the power amps at a higher level so you can keep the gain lower. This helps nix any feedback issues.

**Pacman** · #5 10-19-2008, 03:04 PM

Take your hands off the board and listen.

dave64o · #6 10-19-2008, 03:14 PM

Try a cut before trying a boost (IOW cut the thing that's a problem rather than boosting something else that needs to overcome the first thing).

WalterBush · #7 10-19-2008, 03:18 PM

As noted before, learn about gain structure, know where the signal is at all times, and where it's amplified.

Get the lead vocalist's level set, bring drums and bass up to match, and you've got the basics of a praise team. The rest is gravy once the foundation's there. Don't obsess over keyboards, guitarists, and backing vocals until the foundation is taken care of.

Always remember Who you're doing this for--it's no less worship just because you're behind a board.

Everyone will probably a)try to tell you your job, no matter how nicely, and b) everyone will assume that somehow, what just happened was your fault. Don't expect thanks very often. Be comfortable with that, and you'll do fine.

Deacon_Blues · #8 10-19-2008, 03:20 PM

I've done some of that. No "big" gigs though, the biggest one was a gig in my jazzclub with the (most) famous swedish guitarist Janne Schaffer. I got compliments from him about the sound so I'm happy about that.

Some tips:

- Don't overdo things. Use what's appropriate for the venue. Everything don't need to be miced in a small/medium sized place. Use a minimum of effects and dynamics processors. I'm not saying you should shy away from them, just use them sparsely.

- Always listen to and look at the band playing. Make sure everyone is heard in the band and the balance between instruments is good.

- If the band features vocals, make sure they're heard. If not, cut the other instruments down. As a general principle, don't boost the bass on the vocal mic, as it usually only makes the sound blurry and undefined in the mix.

- Learn how to use the mixer and how to set the input gain knobs properly. Take the time to learn how all frequencies sound to be able to use the eq more effectively. Learn to use the other parts of the system as well. Read the manuals. Experiment.

- As with bass, boosting mids is a good way to make an(y) instrument cut through better in the mix. Boosting the volume might just make things blurry, e.g. if you have to deal with a scooped heavy-metal guitar sound.

- Bass drums sounds the best (very IMO and jazz being an exception) with the low mids cut down rather heavily and some high mids / treble is boosted slightly. Eliminates feedback problems as well.

- Lighting cause problems in the form of humming if they're put in the same electricity phase and a dimmer is used. Always put sound and lighting in different electric phases whenever possible.

I could go on, but here's a few tips to get you started. Anyway, since I know what you've told us here on TB in other threads, I'm a bit concerned about your hearing and how it would affect the mixing. You will mix according to what you hear, and if you have some serious issues with your hearing I'd advice you against doing to much mixing. Do you have a graph of your hearing? I know I have a cut in the high mids at about 4 khz but I don't consider it significant enough to have a major impact on my mixing abilities.

It might be stupid, but I don't like to use ear protection when mixing a gig. Most people in the audience don't wear ear plugs either, and I don't like to fool myself with a weaker and possibly morphed sound. This way I'm keeping the volume reasonable for everyone, and I hear exactly what the audience hear, which is a good thing IMO.

iamlowsound · #9 10-19-2008, 03:43 PM

Buy really good headphones and mix through those if it is a medium or bigger venue, or if everything is running through the PA. Much easier to hear what is going on and pick out what needs to be adjusted. Cut before boosting. At church, lead vocals, first, lead instrument (usually guitar or piano) second, bass third (or first if it isn't running through the system), drums, then whatever else. If it is a small place and drums aren't mic'd, get the drummer to play like he usually would, then adjust everything accordingly. Remember that things change once there are people in the building, but don't fiddle too much. Figure out what works and go from there. I can go to church, set levels from off and not have to adjust anything now. Down to that much of a science that I can set the levels and go onto stage and not worry about things. Learn how to do that, because you never know who isn't going to show up.

lowsound

David1234 · #10 10-19-2008, 04:47 PM

Additionally,

1. There's no point doing a great mix of a terrible performance. Make sure you do a sound check every time, focussing on the foldback. Have the front of house off and get the stage levels perfect. Give the musicians no excuse not to do a great job! And make sure you have your mixer set up so that the foldback levels don't change when you change the front of house levels. (This is usually called pre-fade monitoring).

2. Don't use headphones very much, or you might not be aware of problems in the room that you need to respond to immediately.

3. Possibly more important than the music is having the spoken word as clear as possible. Clear and loud aren't often the same, for example boosting bass on speech is usually a bad idea, giving the voice a sense of power without making it any easier to understand the words being spoken. And watch your volume in both the music and the rest of the church meeting, since you must not fatigue the ears of your brothers and sisters in the crowd, if they're there to hear an important message.

Stumbo · #11 10-19-2008, 11:41 PM

If you can, on your own and if the church is available, you can "practice" with the board by playing a recording and experimenting with the e.q. and other controls.

Also, does anyone else have experience with the mixer that you can lean on for some "training".

There's a balance between the main volume and the individual volumes that you have to learn how much you can push each one. You don't want to run the channel volumes near max and the main volume too low.

Right before a group sound check, have each instrument or vocal do an individual soundcheck to make sure each mic is working.

If vocalists start to move around the stage, you may have to adjust the monitor level to account for them being closer/further away. If they're closer, you may get feedback.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_engineering

http://churchsound.prosoundweb.com/

Many pro audio manufacturers have good tutorials on live sound / pro audio techniques and applications. These are free on their websites. Try Mackie, Allen & Heath, Shure, JBL, ElectroVoice, Audio Tecnicha, AKG, etc.

You should also checkout the Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook. It was written a long time ago but is still a good beginner's reference book. http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/...230600,00.html

There's also a guide available for Worship sound systems:
http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/...RODUCT,00.html

**Pacman** · #12 10-20-2008, 01:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David1234

Additionally,

1. There's no point doing a great mix of a terrible performance. Make sure you do a sound check every time, focussing on the foldback. Have the front of house off and get the stage levels perfect. Give the musicians no excuse not to do a great job! And make sure you have your mixer set up so that the foldback levels don't change when you change the front of house levels. (This is usually called pre-fade monitoring).

I strongly disagree with this. As both a church musician and a touring bandleader, I've found that a soundcheck with the mains off will cause everyone in the band to say "Why does everything change after soundcheck", usually in a very pissed-off tone. The reason is, monitors don't exist in a vacuum - everything in the room affects the monitor mix. Leave the mains on, and you'll get a much closer approximation of what the room will sound like when you're performing. Unless you're going to perform with the mains off.

David1234 · #13 10-20-2008, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacman

I strongly disagree with this. As both a church musician and a touring bandleader, I've found that a soundcheck with the mains off will cause everyone in the band to say "Why does everything change after soundcheck", usually in a very pissed-off tone. The reason is, monitors don't exist in a vacuum - everything in the room affects the monitor mix. Leave the mains on, and you'll get a much closer approximation of what the room will sound like when you're performing. Unless you're going to perform with the mains off.

Yes, things change after a sound check, and you want the best foldback possible for the show, not just for the soundcheck. But having the FoH off to get the foldback right is the best solution I've found, so far, to the problem where people on stage think they've got sufficient vocal foldback during sound check, so they agree to those levels, then can't hear with any adequate clarity once the seats get filled. I invite better solutions to this problem; just haven't found one yet.

Deacon_Blues · #14 10-20-2008, 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David1234

2. Don't use headphones very much, or you might not be aware of problems in the room that you need to respond to immediately.

+1

The sound in the headphones is mostly a very dry sound that differs greatly from the sound you hear FOH. The main difference is that you will not hear any leakage from the stage (drums, amps, monitors) through your headphones, so chances are big you'll turn up the drums or guitar/bass rigs too much and end up with a too loud mix and vocals that aren't heard.

Headphones might come in handy at large gigs, but even then you should never mix using headphones exclusively. The live sound out of the speakers should always be the first priority.

IMO, YMMV etc.

**Pacman** · #15 10-20-2008, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David1234

Yes, things change after a sound check, and you want the best foldback possible for the show, not just for the soundcheck. But having the FoH off to get the foldback right is the best solution I've found, so far, to the problem where people on stage think they've got sufficient vocal foldback during sound check, so they agree to those levels, then can't hear with any adequate clarity once the seats get filled. I invite better solutions to this problem; just haven't found one yet.

Leaving FOH on, even a little louder than expected levels, gives you a much more realistic mix of room/monitor during a soundcheck. As a performer, it makes me absolutely livid using the no mains approach - getting a mix during soundcheck, and coming back to have it completely different during the show. As a bandleader, I toured for 3 years and used the mains on approach and had very few issues in wildly varying rooms. Works consistantly, and keeps the performers happy.

iamlowsound · #16 10-20-2008, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David1234

Yes, things change after a sound check, and you want the best foldback possible for the show, not just for the soundcheck. But having the FoH off to get the foldback right is the best solution I've found, so far, to the problem where people on stage think they've got sufficient vocal foldback during sound check, so they agree to those levels, then can't hear with any adequate clarity once the seats get filled. I invite better solutions to this problem; just haven't found one yet.

Better solution, when they agree, turn it up a little more.

lowsound

derelicte · #17 10-20-2008, 08:49 PM

i mix on occasion for church. aside from knowing what all the knobs do, you should know the songs so you know what channels to boost/cut/pan during what parts.

Munjibunga · #18 10-20-2008, 09:05 PM

Are you a sound engineer or a fader jockey? Can you patch everything in and out of the board? Can you set crossover frequencies and calculate delays? Can you ring out a room with an RTA mic? Do you have an ear for which frequencies are which for curbing feedback? Do you know the frequency ranges of the various instruments and voices, and can you EQ them for the best sound? Can you hear every instrument and voice individually in the mix? How about compression? Can you set appropriate attack, release, threshold and ratio settings for vocals and instruments? How about gates for percussion? Can you set up matrices for FOH and monitor land?

I've been a fader jock for over 30 years, and it just took a few hours over at ProSoundWeb.com to realize how complicated sound engineering is. It's not something you decide you are in a day.

Benjamin Strange · #19 10-20-2008, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fassa Albrecht

Any tips so I don't muck it up?

For every EQ there is a fool to use it.

Baryonyx · #20 10-21-2008, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

I've been a fader jock for over 30 years, and it just took a few hours over at ProSoundWeb.com to realize how complicated sound engineering is. It's not something you decide you are in a day.

+1

It's a discipline as involved as actually playing an instrument, and takes a lot of time and dedication to be good at.