Jamtronica - Need Help With Setup!

[jmattbassplaya]

Hey guys,

This is probably going to be a fairly long-winded thread, so please bare with me.

One of my guitarists and I have recently noticed a huge potential market for Jamtronica music in and around Knoxville, and we have decided to start a band in that genre. For those of you who are unfamiliar, these are a few examples of the genre:

Sound Tribe Sector 9 - Open E (Live @ The Tabernacle) - YouTube
The Malah "Stealth" Live @ Trinumeral 09 - YouTube
Papadosio- The eyes have eyes - YouTube

We're basically looking to do music along those lines. We currently have an idea of what all we need to do to make it happen, but we'd like some pointers to make sure we're going down the right path.

Our target goal is to use synths, pads, and computers to create background textures and sequences to our music that we can trigger relatively easily so that we can still focus dominantly on our main instruments. We both have bought a synth so far (he has a Alesis Micron and I have the Akai Miniak), and as of now we're trying to figure out what our next step should be.

But before we continue I should note that me and him are trying to keep this band a 3 piece if at all possible (drums, bass, and guitar), so we're going to need gear that is relatively easy and quick to use when we're playing a gig.

What we're trying to figure out now is what else we will need to pull this off. We're looking for controllers that we can use with our respective synths to hold presets for us. However, we're hoping to finds controllers that have banks for each individual song of ours so that our presets don't get jumbled up. That, or we're hoping Ableton will be able to hold banks for individual songs. If it can, please let me know!

Now I'm personally hoping for a controller that will allow me to modify a sequence or patch in real time on a gig. I'm also hoping to find one that uses pads instead of keys, because keys and me don't get along to well Right now I'm looking at the Akai APC series of controllers, so if anyone could comment on these that would be awesome. So far they seem to do what I want them to do, but I'm not 100% positive as I am very new to this stuff.

We're also aware that we'll basically need to get a computer setup with Ableton Live, and I was just wondering if there is anything about Ableton I should be aware of when setting up a controller. Also, I was wondering if it were possible for us to sync two synth setups together so that everything would run in time with one another.

My next question is an open ended one. Basically, I just want to know if I'm missing anything in my setup or if there's something I haven't considered to make this band work. Also, I'm curious as to what kinds of cables I'm going to need to buy to make this setup work, and I'm also curious as to what kinds of stands or racks are out there for bands looking to do this stuff and keep everything nice and tidy.

My last question deals with my synth rig. Right now I'm planning to use my Markbass LMIII and Genz Benz Neox212T. So far it has been working great, but I was wondering if it might be a good idea for me to buy a limiter to run between my synth and my speakers to protect them against possible signal spikes. If yes, what limiters would you suggest me to get?

I guess that's it! If anyone could provide me with some suggestions and ideas on how to get started I would greatly appreciate it

Thanks!

[D.A.R.K.]

Minimal and clean? A reasonably powerful and current laptop
with ram, Ableton live, an interface that meets your needs, and controllers.... run everything off the one system.
You can easily run a few soft synths, loops, tracks, triggers, some effects processing, some live looping, and even control lighting (midi to dmx conversion is possible if you use max for live).
Having everything on a clock is really nice. you could even keep your synths and run midi clock from live- no having to adjust tempos for arps, built in time based effects, etc.
In Ableton, we actually make a single master set for shows so everything is pre-loaded into ram and ready to go.
You can easily control every parameter in live, down to different tempos for each scene, and even change the preset in the hardware synths if they allow via midi command.
If each tune is very different and complex in ableton(ours are in production) your best bet is to probably simplify parts by rendering into a performance format that will have fewer tracks and work for all your tunes. (I typically render everything down to go into 4 stereo groups: percussive, instrument, samples/vox, effects/loops).
There is something to be said for not keeping everything on a clock however, as the human element is what everyone really loves about this type of performance...

[jmattbassplaya]

That's one thing we're actually wanting to work with. My guitarist and I have noticed that most bands that do this sort of thing are very limited in their ability to really jam and go places with their music because they're running songs via Ableton that have specific time frames that you're somewhat forced to work within. We're hoping to find ways around those constraints.

[DBCrocky]

This is a pretty good box for doing the job solo. Similar to AKAI MPC, but this one does synth lines instead of sampling.

Korg Electribe EMX-1 With SD Storage: Shop Keyboards & MIDI & Other Musical Instruments | Musician's Friend

Can your drummer play along with something like this, given the right monitoring situation? Using very low rez drum machine sounds seemed to me to mix very well with a live drummer.

What's nice about these is that you can change the patch with a MIDI command (say, from a foot controller), but the patch will not change until the next 1 beat.

I have hooked this up with the Alesis Micron syncing by MIDI clock, so you can play Micron sequences locked in with the EMX. When using MIDI clock, set one device to be your MIDI clock generator. You run from it's MIDI out to the other device MIDI in's, and set those devices to sync to MIDI clock.

So the upshot is that, with some programming and a little MIDI learning, you can have a foot-controllable sequencer that you can play along with, and your keyboards can even be synced in.

Don't know much about Ableton, but I just don't like the idea of using PC's as part of performance. Computers crash too much...

If you are looking at MIDI foot controllers, I can recommend the Behringer FCB1010 as really good bang for the buck. Of if you want the absolutely most awesome foot controller made, check out the Gordius Little Giant.

Hope that gives you some ideas!

[jmattbassplaya]

Thank you so much! That will definitely give me some other options to consider. Personally, I dislike the idea of using computers too, and that EMX looks like a really nice alternative and one that might save us money in the long run.

As far as drummers are concerned, we're actually currently looking for one who has some experiencing doing this sort of thing, or, at the bare minimum, someone who is a top notch musician who understands how to listen, keep things simple, and preferably be fine with playing to a click because I can see things getting messy without one.

[MakiSupaStar]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

Minimal and clean? A reasonably powerful and current laptop
with ram, Ableton live, an interface that meets your needs, and controllers.... run everything off the one system.
You can easily run a few soft synths, loops, tracks, triggers, some effects processing, some live looping, and even control lighting (midi to dmx conversion is possible if you use max for live).
Having everything on a clock is really nice. you could even keep your synths and run midi clock from live- no having to adjust tempos for arps, built in time based effects, etc.
In Ableton, we actually make a single master set for shows so everything is pre-loaded into ram and ready to go.
You can easily control every parameter in live, down to different tempos for each scene, and even change the preset in the hardware synths if they allow via midi command.
If each tune is very different and complex in ableton(ours are in production) your best bet is to probably simplify parts by rendering into a performance format that will have fewer tracks and work for all your tunes. (I typically render everything down to go into 4 stereo groups: percussive, instrument, samples/vox, effects/loops).
There is something to be said for not keeping everything on a clock however, as the human element is what everyone really loves about this type of performance...

BIG +1


Hahaha. Hey Doug!!

Well D.A.R.K. beat me to it. STS9 is heavily dependent on Ableton. In fact, IIRC, they each have Ableton rigs. But listen to DARK. He knows what he's talking about. I had been using Ableton as a DAW recording environment, and he helped me open up the performance side of Ableton, and it opened up a whole new approach to song structures. Literally, you can play the same song different every night of your life of you want to. I'm currently noodling with using an iPad with my bass rig, and the iPad TouchAble app works as a controller to my laptop running Ableton loops. It's cool, but I'm not sure I would trust it. The APC is a much better controller.

[DBCrocky]

Learning MIDI will be key to this type of setup.

The Gordius Little Giant gives you all sorts of cool capabilities you can't get from other foot controllers. It has a display, and you can program the song names so you know you're on the right bank. (I have even put the key of the song in case I have a brain freeze on stage). Then use the up/down switches to scroll through the songs. It has too many cool, versatile features to even go into. For this type of setup, I can't recommend this foot controller enough. They are built by this guy Xavier DeDonder in Belgium, he is really easy to communicate with, and he has actually put a couple of feature I requested into his software, which he updates on a regular basis.

Also check out MIDI Solutions (midisolutions.com). They have a number of cheap MIDI black boxes for various MIDI needs, like splitters, mergers, translators, relays, and switches. I have found them very useful for solving little MIDI gotchas, and John will also program you up a custom box if you need something really unusual.

Good Luck!

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

That's one thing we're actually wanting to work with. My guitarist and I have noticed that most bands that do this sort of thing are very limited in their ability to really jam and go places with their music because they're running songs via Ableton that have specific time frames that you're somewhat forced to work within. We're hoping to find ways around those constraints.

That's what ableton is all about- not just playing tracks back.
Otherwise, why not just use an ipod?
For us, after boiling down a set to 8 sub groups, tracks are divided into sections that will loop continuously unless the next section is triggered, or go one deeper and move through a succession of random patterns using follow actions in clips.
We use a lot of different controllers to trigger scenes and clips, you can use anything midi- I used a behringer fcb 1010 quite effectively to control triggering of sections/ loops/ clips while playing bass.
It's a simple or complex as you want to make it, and quite possibly one of the best options out there for randomization and jamming with electronics.

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Thank you so much! That will definitely give me some other options to consider. Personally, I dislike the idea of using computers too, and that EMX looks like a really nice alternative and one that might save us money in the long run.

As far as drummers are concerned, we're actually currently looking for one who has some experiencing doing this sort of thing, or, at the bare minimum, someone who is a top notch musician who understands how to listen, keep things simple, and preferably be fine with playing to a click because I can see things getting messy without one.

The emx is a computer, but I get not wanting to bring a laptop and interface to a gig.
Fwiw, the ipad korg electribe I now use is far superior in quality of sound than the hardware which was really noisy.
You could do a show with that and a bass!
It was only 20 bucks, and the hardware version cost nearly as much as an ipad.... I also use a few other units including a filtatron by moog, so at this point the ipad is cheap compared to getting multiple pieces of hardware.

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally Posted by DBCrocky

Don't know much about Ableton, but I just don't like the idea of using PC's as part of performance. Computers crash too much...

Depends on what you use and how you treat it. I find a well maintained computer is no less likely of failure than any other piece of hardware. They are part of almost every show I work these days. It's 99.9% user error, like everything else.
I've got to knock on wood now....

[MakiSupaStar]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

That's one thing we're actually wanting to work with. My guitarist and I have noticed that most bands that do this sort of thing are very limited in their ability to really jam and go places with their music because they're running songs via Ableton that have specific time frames that you're somewhat forced to work within. We're hoping to find ways around those constraints.

You can adjust the tempo on Ableton on the fly.

We actually approach it a little differently. We play with a DJ/Mixer who is our heartbeat. He's in charge of the mixer, an APC unit and he runs our loops through Ableton through his mixer and his turntable using serrato. Right now we give him mic's from the snare and hihat and sometimes we give him a mic from our guitarists amp. Occasionally I'll give him a line out as well. But the way that we control the tempo is that center our groove around him. He is essentially a metronome. So all of us lock to him, including our drummer. So it's essential that he's in all of our monitors (or that we can at least hear him). Because he's running our songs, this allows us flexibility too. For instance, if our guitarist has recorded a skank line, then he can run the skank (and tweak it out with effects) using ableton, while our guitarists plays lead, or flip flop back and forth. I also depend on him sometimes to run my effects loop on songs that require a lot of fx combinations. The cool thing about that is that if I'm playing the same bassline clean, he now has the pre-recorded version of that bassline that he can take to jupiter.

You can go as simple as you like with this stuff. You can just record some loops that you can hit when ever you want, that aren't tempo dependent as well. Kind of in a hurry, and I'm not sure if I explaining this stuff accurately. Hope this helps.

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

BIG +1


Hahaha. Hey Doug!!

I'm currently noodling with using an iPad with my bass rig, and the iPad TouchAble app works as a controller to my laptop running Ableton loops. It's cool, but I'm not sure I would trust it. The APC is a much better controller.

Hey Maki!
been a while..
I must suggest trying touch osc for live.
I use touchable to control avid mixing desks, and it's good,
but touch osc for live template is the best thing i've ever used for live- even your clip names come up on every clip...
it trumps the apc since you can see what everything is as opposed to just a light. Plus it has more controller options, and an incredible virtual fader response- crazy good resolution
and the end result is unlike most midi controllers where 1-127 steps is the only option and you can perceive incremental "stepping".
There is a good point here though about simplicity, for example when it comes to quantization and tone character it's hard to beat an old mpc despite the limitations.

[MakiSupaStar]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

That's what ableton is all about- not just playing tracks back.
Otherwise, why not just use an ipod?
For us, after boiling down a set to 8 sub groups, tracks are divided into sections that will loop continuously unless the next section is triggered, or go one deeper and move through a succession of random patterns using follow actions in clips.
We use a lot of different controllers to trigger scenes and clips, you can use anything midi- I used a behringer fcb 1010 quite effectively to control triggering of sections/ loops/ clips while playing bass.
It's a simple or complex as you want to make it, and quite possibly one of the best options out there for randomization and jamming with electronics.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention that. We do that to. Each section of the song should be set up like a loop that can be triggered whenever you want. So if you want to jam the intro to your song for 20 minutes one night you can do that. If you want to just play it out for 1 measure or 4 measures another night you can do that too. Our DJ triggers when we move to the next part of the song. It's a lot of heads up playing and paying attention to each other, but it's really no different than heads up playing in any other band situation. If you set up a section as a loop that can cycle back around (sometimes it's cool if it doesn't cycle it evenly too - creates kind of a broken record feel) you can jam til your heart's content. So if a normal song has say an intro - verse - chorus - verse - chorus - jam/dub/breakdown - chorus - outro, each one of these would be set up in ableton as a loop. You can control the progress through the song seamlessly. Let's say in one section, say a dub section, it's breaking down nicely and we want to stretch it out for a few extra measures, we can do that. The cool thing about Ableton is that no matter what, when ever you switch to the next section of the song, it always does it on the 1, so you don't have to worry about your dj, or whoever's in charge of the master, hitting it perfectly. It will always switch on the 1.

[D.A.R.K.]

Originally Posted by MakiSupaStar

\ The cool thing about Ableton is that no matter what, when ever you switch to the next section of the song, it always does it on the 1, so you don't have to worry about your dj, or whoever's in charge of the master, hitting it perfectly. It will always switch on the 1.

Unless you choose no quantization
(which is an option along with standard length quantizations from 1/32nd on up including triplets)

[sandmangeck]

Check out The Coop from Chicago, and Eumatik from Muncie, Indiana. Both 3 pieces, we've played shows with both.

[MakiSupaStar]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

Hey Maki!
been a while..
I must suggest trying touch osc for live.
I use touchable to control avid mixing desks, and it's good,
but touch osc for live template is the best thing i've ever used for live- even your clip names come up on every clip...
it trumps the apc since you can see what everything is as opposed to just a light. Plus it has more controller options, and an incredible virtual fader response- crazy good resolution
and the end result is unlike most midi controllers where 1-127 steps is the only option and you can perceive incremental "stepping".
There is a good point here though about simplicity, for example when it comes to quantization and tone character it's hard to beat an old mpc despite the limitations.

Ok. That's a great help. Touch OSC. I'll check it out.

Touchable is ok, but it's kind of buggy getting set up with the network in the beginning. I'd hate to have to do that in a live setting. I've held up a couple of rehearsals getting the my ipad a the computer to play nicely. When it's rolling it's pretty cool though. I've had fun using it as a midi input for ableton tracks though. Especially the drum pad. In fact, I use it more for that, and then shaping the beats than the controller part.

[MakiSupaStar]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

Unless you choose no quantization
(which is an option along with standard length quantizations from 1/32nd on up including triplets)

Hahaha. This is true, but I didn't want to scare the dude.

Seriously though. DARK's right. It doesn't have to ALWAYS come in on the 1. You can control that with Ableton.

[jmattbassplaya]

Hey guys,

Thanks again for all the great info! I feel like I'm starting to get the hang of this, but just to be sure I have everything can you please verify that this setup would be sufficient to do the stuff I want to do:

Akai Miniak for my synth
Akai APC40 (or something similar) for my controller to start and stop loops, pads, synth lines, etc... Would a foot controller like the Behringer FCB be better?
PC with Ableton Live
Some sort of interface of my choice to connect the synth (and maybe my bass) to the computer (any suggestions?)

Thanks again for all the help

[D.A.R.K.]

Sounds like a good start with the gear.
The interface is very important, it will need to be able to have low latency in order to use effectively as a processor for external devices, and enough i/o to cover your needs. you will probably want to get one that has midi i/o if you don't have a port in the controller you end up with.
What model interface you go with can depend on the make of the computer, I have had a great track record with motu products, and work with folks who use them currently. I use an rme fireface400, but it is considerably more $.
Firewire is superior in performance to any usb ime (except the rme, but they use their own proprietary drivers that work with fw or usb connections, so it's not the same thing).
The controller- that is a choice only you will make through trying out different ones. It has been a never ending journey for me. Luckily most are reasonably priced.
I had an apc 40 but sold it...it's a bit large (not back pack friendly at all, too big).
It was nice though, until the master fader popped out (defective, not due to any type of abuse). I have the novation launch pad and akai mpd25 which I use when wanting to beat hard on rubbery pads.
I also have a novation remote le for real keys.
Touch osc for live on ipad is my favorite right now for the stated reasons, but the key thing about having a foot controller is being able to play bass and control arrangement functions or trigger things simultaneously.
The fcb 1010 is great for this, but a bitch to program.
Im sure there are a few newer foot controllers out there by now.

[jmattbassplaya]

Thanks for all the help, DARK. I'll be sure to get a quality interface that will work with one of my laptops. Let's see how far I can go on my own from here. I'm sure I'll be back soon enough with more questions