Jazz in the 30s and 40s - an oral

[jenderfazz]

Well TB. here's another chance for you to help me out. I've got a small oral to make (5 mins or so) on jazz in America in the 1930s and 40s. It's for English class, so I don't need too much technical detail, but more of an overview that can be absorbed by musicians and non-musicians all the same, and that focuses on the impact it had on the US at that time.

Though I'll probably find a lot of info, I'd just like some suggestions on main topics I should focus on - the main musicians of the time, the main styles, the main fans of the genre. My English class is on the "beat" generation, by the way, so if it can tie in to them at all that would be great. Thanks.

[Phil Smith]

1930's - Swing Era
1940's - Bob Era

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

1930's - Swing Era
1940's - Bob Era

Bob???

[RichValentine]

You probably won't be able to watch it in time, but if you are really interested in it, get Jazz - A Film by Ken Burns DVD set. Covers it in some depth, and really really good.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by jenderfazz

Well TB. here's another chance for you to help me out. I've got a small oral to make (5 mins or so) on jazz in America in the 1930s and 40s. It's for English class, so I don't need too much technical detail, but more of an overview that can be absorbed by musicians and non-musicians all the same, and that focuses on the impact it had on the US at that time.

Though I'll probably find a lot of info, I'd just like some suggestions on main topics I should focus on - the main musicians of the time, the main styles, the main fans of the genre. My English class is on the "beat" generation, by the way, so if it can tie in to them at all that would be great. Thanks.

Go down to your library and get a copy of Ken Burns' Jazz. It kind of concentrates on this period.

You've got jazz in the thirties being all about dancing, with big bands being the thing. Benny Goodman, Duke Ellington and Count Basie.

Then there was a big change punctuated by the war.

Jazz became an intellectual endeavour, tritone substitutions and flattened fifths, quintets and quartets, Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie.

Check this out...

http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/p...-primer-2.html

[Folmeister]

It's an important time because Jazz reigns supreme in pop music through the 40s. The popularity of swing drives the war years until the bebop backlash starting in the 1950s. Bebop intentionally moves jazz away from pop culture. It creates a nice vacuum for rock and roll to fill.



For what it's worth, I am a really big fan of the Bob Era in Jazz. I believe it encompassed the years between the 40s and the 50s. The prime innovator of the period was named, appropriately, Bob. Bob Jazz. He invented a form of Braille jazz that never really took off.

[Dan Molina]

Originally Posted by RichValentine

You probably won't be able to watch it in time, but if you are really interested in it, get Jazz - A Film by Ken Burns DVD set. Covers it in some depth, and really really good.

It comes on PBS alot too.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

1930's - Swing Era
1940's - Bob Era

Bzzzzzt! Thanks for playing!

40's swing
50's bop

[gottawalk]

Hmmm...5 minutes?

Get two recordings; one from the 30's and one from the 40's and play them in their entirety. Then look up and say, "Jazz back then was really cool, man!"

That should pretty much fill up your time.

[dlloyd]

Originally Posted by Pacman

Bzzzzzt! Thanks for playing!

40's swing
50's bop

Respectfully... Most of Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker's most famous tunes were recorded in the mid 1940s...

A Night in Tunisia 1946
Now's the Time 1945
Donna Lee 1947
Scrapple from the Apple 1947

1950s was more hard bop and cool jazz.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Pacman

Bzzzzzt! Thanks for playing!

40's swing
50's bop

Ha ha! Perhaps before you hit the buzzer you should consult the writing of some Jazz historians to get the timeline down.

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by dlloyd

Respectfully... Most of Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker's most famous tunes were recorded in the mid 1940s...

A Night in Tunisia 1946
Now's the Time 1945
Donna Lee 1947
Scrapple from the Apple 1947

1950s was more hard bop and cool jazz.

If you REALLY want to get into semantics, the mid-late 40's were the roots and beginnings of bop and laying the foundation for the 50's, which became very much the bop era during which Bird and Diz were far from the only guys playing this stuff. Also taking a look at the other big players in bop:

Thelonius Monk - 1947
Charles Mingus - 1952
Buddy Rich - 1952
Max Roach - 1949
Bud Powell - 1947

The above is a list of bop masters with the year of their first recordings (excluding specifically sideman gigs) according to the AMG. Now, logically, one can't really consider the 40's the bop era because it only REALLY started in the mid-40's on wax and up until 47, basically only Bird and Diz were really doing it. Bebop didn't really catch on with other musicians until the very late 40's/early 50s. Can't say I'd really call 3 years out of a decade an "era."

PS: Out of every bop master listed on the AMG genre description of bop, there wasn't a single other person listed that I haven't already mentioned with a bop album pre-1950.


EDIT: Sorry, I forgot. BZZZZT.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

If you REALLY want to get into semantics, the mid-late 40's were the roots and beginnings of bop and laying the foundation for the 50's, which became very much the bop era during which Bird and Diz were far from the only guys playing this stuff. Also taking a look at the other big players in bop:

Nonsense...The roots and the beginnings of Bop arise from young big band players such as Dizzy, Charlie Parker and they along with others essentially usher in the new style at the beggining of the 1940's.

Thelonius Monk - 1947
Charles Mingus - 1952
Buddy Rich - 1952
Max Roach - 1949
Bud Powell - 1947

The above is a list of bop masters with the year of their first recordings (excluding specifically sideman gigs) according to the AMG. Now, logically, one can't really consider the 40's the bop era because it only REALLY started in the mid-40's on wax and up until 47, basically only Bird and Diz were really doing it. Bebop didn't really catch on with other musicians until the very late 40's/early 50s. Can't say I'd really call 3 years out of a decade an "era."

You left out...

Kenny Clarke - http://www.angelfire.com/mac/keepitl...rke/clarke.htm
Jimmy Blanton - http://www.jazzscript.co.uk/life/blantonlife.htm
Charlie Christian - http://www-music.duke.edu/jazz_archi...biograph2.html
Coleman Hawkins

You also left out the fact that there was a recording ban from 1942-1944.

PS: Out of every bop master listed on the AMG genre description of bop, there wasn't a single other person listed that I haven't already mentioned with a bop album pre-1950.


EDIT: Sorry, I forgot. BZZZZT.

The BZZZZZT is on you.

[Phil Smith]

To the OP...

There are a number of social developments that are happening during the 1930's and 1940's. You have the depression in the 30's, repeal of prohibition, World War II and the beginnings of the civil rights movement.

[dlloyd]

Charlie Christian is an obvious case in point, usually cited as one of the pioneers of bebop and having died in 1942.

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by Phil Smith

Nonsense...The roots and the beginnings of Bop arise from young big band players such as Dizzy, Charlie Parker and they along with others essentially usher in the new style at the beggining of the 1940's.



You left out...

Kenny Clarke - http://www.angelfire.com/mac/keepitl...rke/clarke.htm
Jimmy Blanton - http://www.jazzscript.co.uk/life/blantonlife.htm
Charlie Christian - http://www-music.duke.edu/jazz_archi...biograph2.html
Coleman Hawkins

You also left out the fact that there was a recording ban from 1942-1944.




The BZZZZZT is on you.

Yeah...and all those bebop players seemed to wait at leat 3-6 years after that recording ban to start recording records.

Look, I'm not saying the roots of bebop aren't in the 40's, because clearly they are. The bebop era -- the height of its popularity, when musicians all over the place were cranking out bebop in their sleep, when bebop was basically pop -- was not in the 40's, because it just hadn't been developed by then. It was developing. Case in point -- the linked sources you gave to Jimmy Blanton, where the only mention of bebop also refers to a recording where the "new language of bebop is being developed..."

The only thing you've showed me is the other originators of bebop. That's cool, because honestly, I wasn't all that familiar with who played in the rhythm section on really early bop stuff. However, you're still far from proving that this was the bebop era. For instance, the swing era is generally regarded as the 30's, right? Because that's when it's the most popular, when it was at its peak. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone referencing the first 5 years when swing was just starting to come into its own as the swing era, so why are you doing that for bebop?

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

Yeah...and all those bebop players seemed to wait at leat 3-6 years after that recording ban to start recording records.

This is irrelevant, you have to look at what's going on during these years, you have to read the historical record and I'm not talking about the internet, you have to get your hands on actual books, written by Jazz historians who were either there or consulted with those that were.

FYI: LP's were introduced in 1948 by Columbia Records.

Look, I'm not saying the roots of bebop aren't in the 40's, because clearly they are. The bebop era -- the height of its popularity, when musicians all over the place were cranking out bebop in their sleep, when bebop was basically pop -- was not in the 40's, because it just hadn't been developed by then. It was developing. Case in point -- the linked sources you gave to Jimmy Blanton, where the only mention of bebop also refers to a recording where the "new language of bebop is being developed..."

Bepop was not pop and primarily a black phenomena, popular culture was white and defacto segragation was the order of the day. Which means anything created or embraced by black people was for the most part rejected by the more dominant white culture. If the white culture had not bought into swing, which was dance music, it would never have been the pop music of the day.

Lastly, the top singles in 1946 are by performers with the following names:

Perry Como
Frank Sinatra
Johnny Mercer
Bing Crosby
Frankie Carle
Dinah Shore
Guy Lombardo
The Nat King Cole Trio
Peggy Lee

Not a bopper in the bunch.

The only thing you've showed me is the other originators of bebop. That's cool, because honestly, I wasn't all that familiar with who played in the rhythm section on really early bop stuff. However, you're still far from proving that this was the bebop era. For instance, the swing era is generally regarded as the 30's, right? Because that's when it's the most popular, when it was at its peak. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone referencing the first 5 years when swing was just starting to come into its own as the swing era, so why are you doing that for bebop?

The 40's is the bop era, the 50's introduces a different type of sound as does the 60's as does the 70's, etc. All of these changes are influenced by technology and social trends.

[Aaron Saunders]

*sigh* You think I'd learn to NOT bang my head against a brick wall.

[FenderHotRod]

Um....Yeah I just got of the phone with Miles and um he said to shut the (*&^&*^*0)up
It don't mean a thing if it aint got that swing. before you guys freak out I know it's the Duke and not Miles.

[Phil Smith]

Originally Posted by Aaron Saunders

*sigh* You think I'd learn to NOT bang my head against a brick wall.

I hope if anything it's because you want to make way for information that you are obviously unaware of.