Jazz musicians are significantly overrated.

[Nick Dilley]

"Chew" on!! LOL. I get it. Examples of what? Stuff to listen to?

[lucas vigor]

I also know that metal has changed a lot since the 80s and 90s, but one thing I always thought back in those days was that metal guitarists were like football placekickers...they were just good at that ONE thing....but could play little else. Back then, it was all about randy rhoads, pinch harmonics and hammer ons...it all seems real impressive till they try and play a simple bluegrass or country tune.....and can't.

[lucas vigor]

Originally Posted by Nick Dilley

i think this discussion is a lost cause....

Probably because it started out with a horribly flawed premise. Read the title of the thread.

[HunterBrodt]

When i was in high school at a performing arts school I remember this shredder who would always bag on jazz and say how easy it was.... That was all shattered when he had to take a jazz guitar class and sounded like he never picked up a guitar before

[Nick Dilley]

lucas,

Well, I think metal, like all genres had its infancy--black sabbath, rainbow, zepplin--which was a beautiful thing, and then it matured with NWBHM stuff (think Maiden and the like) but then it became a commodity and was then forced to be more fomulaic. Much like the jazz that some other guy mentioned early--like de-evolving into cheesy easy-listening lounge and elevator music.

All that flair with speed and crap like that is still around. But their are waaaay more tasteful acts out there now (which, I think is a result of: metal -> prog -> metal influence). I have to say, though, Randy Rhoads was really great. Perhaps his musical output was framed too tightly by a short career in a rock icon's shadow, but if you take the "solo is a song within a song approach" (copyright nick dilley, LOL) then you'd see his solos are really beautifully composed. fit like a glove everytime.

But you're right about metal guitarists switching genres. I have to insist though, that it definitely goes both ways. I think metal guys get a lot of flack because harmonically speaking, metal is so straightforward. Like, "it's simple, so it's bad." I think that's also BS. Plus, in my opinion, metal is more about a meta-emotion. More about being part of a subculture (despite the glaring commercialized problematics with that statement).

[mcblahflooper94]

Everyone is having a war over which is more complicated. Is this what music is about? How complicated things are? Is it a contest?

I enjoy both. To be honest, I've listened to more Prog and I enjoy Prog more than jazz. I've listened to enough jazz to hear the most awesome solos played clean with amazing accuracy.

Sometimes I think we should make a genre called "sport music".

[Nick Dilley]

Originally Posted by HunterBrodt

When i was in high school at a performing arts school I remember this shredder who would always bag on jazz and say how easy it was.... That was all shattered when he had to take a jazz guitar class and sounded like he never picked up a guitar before

That's what I'm saying, though.....it goes BOTH ways.

[Nick Dilley]

Originally Posted by mcblahflooper94

Everyone is having a war over which is more complicated. Is this what music is about? How complicated things are? Is it a contest?

I enjoy both. To be honest, I've listened to more Prog and I enjoy Prog more than jazz. I've listened to enough jazz to hear the most awesome solos played clean with amazing accuracy.

Sometimes I think we should make a genre called "sport music".

LOL. Sport music it is! I hope you didn't think I was contributing to this battle over complexity. I think that's a lost cause and really the antithesis of art. Take the composition for what it is. If one can only hear speed, it's sad because they're missing out on the other 90% of the composition.

[5StringFool]

I've been listening to a lot of old stuff. Mid 40's bop, and some cool, and funky jazz as well. Imo what we think of as jazz really started with bop, so if you want to start developing a real appreciation for it go back to the beginning. It's hard to go wrong with Parker, Gillespie, Monk, Davis, etc.

Of course there's not a lot of guitar, and the bass is string bass/double bass stuff... but that's where to start.

[cosmicpimp2]

I'm glad I like Doom/Stoner metal. The art of playing simple

[pnchad]

these posts are indicative

it's not a sport, it's not gymnastics or track

it's music - jazz is not about DIFFICULT - it's about mastery of the MUSIC

[jmattbassplaya]

Originally Posted by Adam Wright

I have to say, this is soooooo spot on from my experience with jazz drummers. I play with a lot of guys from UNT or recent grads from UNT and I can honestly say there are maybe 2 that I would recommend for any non jazz gigs. Their feel is just off and they hit like little girls. I love jazz and I'm working very hard at becoming a better jazz player after not working on it at all for 10 years so I have all the respect in the world for these and what they can do in that style.

It's funny because our normal drummer also did the jazz program at UT, but he can definitely rock out when needed. But it's like you said, the sub's feel and placement of notes was just off from what we needed for a straight rock gig. I kept trying to tell him to play with a lot more emphasis and to also simplify his beats, but he didn't really understand what I was trying to get him to do.

It's also funny because my theory teacher (who did a jazz approach when I was with him) use to tell me that if you can play jazz you can play anything. I believed him until I met this drummer

[Stereo Joe]

Originally Posted by Tupac

It shocks me how many people hold jazz musicians on a pedestal for simply being jazz.

I agreed with this part but then you lost me...

I'm a freelance bassist and I play with a lot of musicians in a lot of different styles. The jazz superiority complex does pop up from time to time but so does the 'rock superiority' or 'original music superiority'.

For instance, I've played with jazz cats who turn their noses up at anything that isn't traditional or isn't acoustic or isn't really 'out'. I've played with rock guys who think that if music isn't loud and distorted, it sucks. I've played with singer/songwriters who think that if you aren't playing originals in dive joints for tips, then you're a sellout (yet they hire me when they need a bassist). I could go on...

The thing I've observed is that most of the whining about which musical style is better or more challenging comes from the people who are least secure about their playing abilities or musical knowledge and are trying to compensate for their lack of confidence by talking down other players or styles. The musicians I've worked with who are truly at their top of their field (in any genre) have the experience and understanding to appreciate and respect quality players of any style.

[onosson]

Originally Posted by mcblahflooper94

Sometimes I think we should make a genre called "sport music".

That I hope never to hear, but whoever likes it can go enjoy it.

[Nick Dilley]

Tupac,

If you were looking for suggestions, here's my 2 cents:

If you wanna hear this "complex emotional stuff" we've been talking about, two of my personal favs are Thelonius Monk and Charles Mingus (gotta love the crazies!). Their music can be just as discordant as a meshuggah-meets-dillinger-escape-plan riff, but it's definitely a few degrees away from what you are used too.

If you wanna hear emotion I say check out Bud Powell. One of the most emotive pianists out there in my opinion. You can also check out more well-known and big-band-y stuff from Louis Armstrong--talk about knowing how to deliver a song!

If you want shredding check out Art Tatum. Or if you wanna segue into jazz through fusion. Check out Al Di Meola (guitarist) --a lot of my metal friends love this guy for his shredding prowess. He's more of a fusion cat, but he'll get you started.

My advice to you, though, is even if you start with gradual steps away from metal, you can really become a mature listener of music by stepping out of your comfort zone and finding what's good about a certain style, group, etc. That's part of the fun of it for me, and every new discovery opens up my mind and exponentially increases the enjoyment of music for me------even if I need to throw Tornado of Souls on to Get the Led Out once a day!

[dhsierra1]

Originally Posted by Plaz

Nine years of classical piano study and twelve years of classical vocal study. Perhaps that's why I find classical playing easier.

Once one has mastered a pre-written part, it's a matter of reproducing the rote action and adding emotion and expressiveness to it, whether solo or in the context of the ensemble.

we're on a par w/classical training. My experience is vastly different w/r/t classical than yours. Different things move different people, so please don't map your experience as the end all be all yardstick. I don't mine, it's big world and this is why I wind up hating myself for diving into threads like this, have a nice evening

[Tupac]

Originally Posted by Nick Dilley

"Chew" on!! LOL. I get it. Examples of what? Stuff to listen to?

Yeah yeah, I'm interested in hearing what you guys would consider quality jazz music.

Originally Posted by mcblahflooper94

Everyone is having a war over which is more complicated. Is this what music is about? How complicated things are? Is it a contest?

I enjoy both. To be honest, I've listened to more Prog and I enjoy Prog more than jazz. I've listened to enough jazz to hear the most awesome solos played clean with amazing accuracy.

Sometimes I think we should make a genre called "sport music".

That's pretty much prog. Although even in prog there's a great amount of compositional effort to sound good, as with any other music. Tech death is pretty much the closest to as hard as possible to be complex, which actually does sound interesting believe it or not.

[HunterBrodt]

To the op.
Look up Kurt rosenwinkle, you might appreciate what e does

[Nick Dilley]

Originally Posted by Nick Dilley

Tupac,

If you were looking for suggestions, here's my 2 cents:

If you wanna hear this "complex emotional stuff" we've been talking about, two of my personal favs are Thelonius Monk and Charles Mingus (gotta love the crazies!). Their music can be just as discordant as a meshuggah-meets-dillinger-escape-plan riff, but it's definitely a few degrees away from what you are used too.

If you wanna hear emotion I say check out Bud Powell. One of the most emotive pianists out there in my opinion. You can also check out more well-known and big-band-y stuff from Louis Armstrong--talk about knowing how to deliver a song!

If you want shredding check out Art Tatum. Or if you wanna segue into jazz through fusion. Check out Al Di Meola--a lot of my metal friends love this guy for his shredding prowess. He's more of a fusion cat, but he'll get you started.

My advice to you, though, is even if you start with gradual steps away from metal, you can really become a mature listener of music by stepping out of your comfort zone and finding what's good about a certain style, group, etc. That's part of the fun of it for me, and every new discovery opens up my mind and exponentially increases the enjoyment of music for me------even if I need to throw Tornado of Souls on to Get the Led Out once a day!

Btw, Tupac, in addition to these suggestions, I would say check out Ella Fitzgerald. It's cliche to say this, but she did brave stuff vocally. A lot of jazz musicians make daring note choices, but her deliver was superb, and that goes back to musically articulating an emotion in a jazz context.

I also enjoy Art Blakely, and I am writing that here, because I had no category to place him in. Just old-school awesome.

[metalstorm]

Originally Posted by ugly_bassplayer

First Marcus, now jazz musicians. Kid get a life & go practice.

Hahah. +100.