"Jazz vs. Rock" elitism on TalkBass

ProgressiveFan · #1 12-02-2005, 10:59 AM

I rarely post here- I just like to read topics to get technique and song recomendations, but lately I have been noticing a pretty negative thing going on here.
People seem to have an elitist feel that getting lessons and knowing jazz somehow puts them on a platform above rock bassists. Now, I like jazz and rock, so I am not trying to stir up anything here, but I think that both forms are legitimate forms of music and knowing jazz should not make you feel superior to someone who plays rock. That is just wrong in my opinion.

Also, people sometimes get very critical to those who do not take lessons. I think that is ridiculous as well. Not everyone can AFFORD to drop 40 bucks every two weeks on a lesson- I know I cant. But I believe that people can still learn great amounts on their own (there are plenty of good theory books in the library.) It makes me sad to hear people get put down on a site that is supposed to be a constructive place to help bassists.

And, also, that Geddy lee topic dissapointed me as well. Many TBers put down the main poster as "doing something wrong" for not knowing Geddy's lines after 18 years. Geddy Lee is defiinitely good, and to play his lines with perfect precision is very hard. I could get YYZ at like 80% accuracy after a week, but six months later, I had not mastered the song.

I just dont see why people have to be elitists (dont act like this does not go on- it does) to give their ego a lift. People should share their knowledge and be accepting of others' information as well.

specplyrz · #2 12-02-2005, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProgressiveFan

I rarely post here- I just like to read topics to get technique and song recomendations, but lately I have been noticing a pretty negative thing going on here.
People seem to have an elitist feel that getting lessons and knowing jazz somehow puts them on a platform above rock bassists. Now, I like jazz and rock, so I am not trying to stir up anything here, but I think that both forms are legitimate forms of music and knowing jazz should not make you feel superior to someone who plays rock. That is just wrong in my opinion.

Also, people sometimes get very critical to those who do not take lessons. I think that is ridiculous as well. Not everyone can AFFORD to drop 40 bucks every two weeks on a lesson- I know I cant. But I believe that people can still learn great amounts on their own (there are plenty of good theory books in the library.) It makes me sad to hear people get put down on a site that is supposed to be a constructive place to help bassists.

And, also, that Geddy lee topic dissapointed me as well. Many TBers put down the main poster as "doing something wrong" for not knowing Geddy's lines after 18 years. Geddy Lee is defiinitely good, and to play his lines with perfect precision is very hard. I could get YYZ at like 80% accuracy after a week, but six months later, I had not mastered the song.

I just dont see why people have to be elitists (dont act like this does not go on- it does) to give their ego a lift. People should share their knowledge and be accepting of others' information as well.

Excellent points...and don't dissagree either or you may face their wrath.

Jeff Moote · #3 12-02-2005, 11:07 AM

I'm not going to comment on the whole jazz vs. rock thing. I see your point, and agree that one form is not inherently "better" than the other.

But about lessons, and furthermore the elitism that exists. Lessons are extremely valuable. I know not everyone can afford them all the time, but at some point in your life you might be able to, and if you can regularly attend lessons with a good teacher for even a year, I know you will improve more than with 5 years of self study. I'm not currently taking lessons more due to time constraints than anything, but I've had them in the past and would go back to it.

Regarding the elitism, my views on this (even outside of this forum or music altogether) are unconventional, but let me put it this way: if you never set the bar higher for yourself or others, how will anyone improve? I know what you mean on the YYZ thing... many of us can play it through on the first time, but have yet to master it. I know that's about where I stand. But if I truly wanted to master the whole Geddy thing, I'd sit down and work until I got it. In many cases what you call elitism is actually just raising the bar for some to the level of others. If we all do that, eventually we can all reach the level of the pros.

Just some food for thought.

WillBuckingham · #4 12-02-2005, 11:11 AM

When you compare the effort (emotional, physical, technical, musical) that goes in to creating great jazz compared with what's required to come out with a pop or rock hit, I don't think its possible to argue that the latter is art on the same level as good jazz.

p.s. Technique? I don't think so . . .

Bruce Lindfield · #5 12-02-2005, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBuckingham

When you compare the effort (emotional, physical, technical, musical) that goes in to creating great jazz compared with what's required to come out with a pop or rock hit, I don't think its possible to argue that the latter is art on the same level as good jazz.

Yup it's not "elitism" - it's just - "telling it like it is" !!

GrooveWarrior · #6 12-02-2005, 11:13 AM

I guess I'm trying to figure out how getting lessons, and branching out with the genre's you play in DOESN'T elevate you over other bassists. It's not elitist, it's common sense. I have played every genre of music, and jazz, by far, has made me a better musician than any other genre I have played. It opens up your thinking and allows you to see more possibilities. Ask anybody who has played in all genre's and they will tell you jazz was the most important in their development.

Sorry, but lessons and jazz do lift bassists above others. I would love to take lessons as well. Maybe some day I will.

Also, don't assume that people are "putting others down" with this example. You should probably take it as a lot of guys with a lot of real world experience telling younger players the things they wished they knew when they were starting out. I have found people here to be very helpful. There are a lot of big time pro's on this site. I wish I had this resource when I was starting out. So don't question it, just get some lessons and start playing jazz!!

Bruce Lindfield · #7 12-02-2005, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crhoton

I guess I'm trying to figure out how getting lessons, and branching out with the genre's you play in DOESN'T elevate you over other bassists. It's not elitist, it's common sense. I have played every genre of music, and jazz, by far, has made me a better musician than any other genre I have played. It opens up your thinking and allows you to see more possibilities. Ask anybody who has played in all genre's and they will tell you jazz was the most important in their development.

Sorry, but lessons and jazz do lift bassists above others. I would love to take lessons as well. Maybe some day I will.

Also, don't assume that people are "putting others down" with this example. You should probably take it as a lot of guys with a lot of real world experience telling younger players the things they wished they knew when they were starting out. I have found people here to be very helpful. There are a lot of big time pro's on this site. I wish I had this resource when I was starting out. So don't question it, just get some lessons and start playing jazz!!

Couldn't agree more!!

**Vorago** · #8 12-02-2005, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBuckingham

When you compare the effort (emotional, physical, technical, musical) that goes in to creating great jazz compared with what's required to come out with a pop or rock hit, I don't think its possible to argue that the latter is art on the same level as good jazz.

p.s. Technique? I don't think so . . .

I wholeheartly disagree with this point of view, a song containg 3 basic chords, played on a guitar accompagnied by a singer can contain as much emotion as a jazz song.

You're comparing apples with oranges.

Jeff Moote · #9 12-02-2005, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Yup it's not "elitism" - it's just - "telling it like it is" !!

and we don't even want to go over to DB and say the same about classical vs. the rest! Things are a bit more civilized over there though, so I don't thing we'd see a thread like this (or the ones that inspire it).

Akami · #10 12-02-2005, 11:17 AM

One interesting point about the subject of whether a player is valid or not based on whether they've had lessons really loses some water when you figure how many great players never had lessons.

Listening and playing, especially professionaly, is on the job training, not to mention taking part in a forum for bass players!

Bruce Lindfield · #11 12-02-2005, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorago

a song containg 3 basic chords, played on a guitar accompagnied by a singer can contain as much emotion as a jazz song.

But we're talking about technique here and bass playing - not singing!!

ProgressiveFan · #12 12-02-2005, 11:19 AM

Thank you for the responses. I agree that I would love to have lessons some day and when I am an adult on a steady income I will :-)

I agree about setting the bar higher. When I started playing, my goals were to learn some of the basic Yes songs (Roundabout, Yours Is no Disgrace, etc.) Now that I have accomplished my goal I am working on learning some jazz fusion songs (Havona, Palladium, Final Truth Part I by Jean Luc POnty). But everyone goes in different directions. Someone may learn punk songs and then go to progressive metal. I think that anyone who actually loves the instruments will consciously make effort to raise their bar, or else boredom would set in.

To Will- I have listened to alot of jazz and alot of rock. Now, dont get me wrong, most rock is technically dull, but in the progressive genre, the music is as rich as any bebop composition in my opinion (and just based on viewing the music on paper!) If there is some jazz that puts even the most complex and emotional progressive rock to shame! I would love to hear it! Seriously, I am always looking for new stuff, so give me some recommendations (thats why I come here mostly anyway) :-)

Akami · #13 12-02-2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vorago

I wholeheartly disagree with this point of view, a song containg 3 basic chords, played on a guitar accompagnied by a singer can contain as much emotion as a jazz song.

You're comparing apples with oranges.

There is no connection between the complexity of a song and the emotive content.

There is lots of very well played and enjoyable jazz out there virtually void of genuine emotional content and tons of examples of very simple blues numbers with enough human emotion to overdose on.

ProgressiveFan · #14 12-02-2005, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MontyP

and we don't even want to go over to DB and say the same about classical vs. the rest! Things are a bit more civilized over there though, so I don't thing we'd see a thread like this (or the ones that inspire it).

How is my thread uncivilized. I am simply making an observation and looking for some input into it. That is not uncivilized at all.

Bruce Lindfield · #15 12-02-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProgressiveFan

If there is some jazz that puts even the most complex and emotional progressive rock to shame! I would love to hear it!

Well yes - you just haven't listened to enough Jazz yet ...

4Mal · #16 12-02-2005, 11:22 AM

Most of the jazz guys I know don't sing. Many more of the pop, rock, blues gospel and country bassists I know do. It's a whole other world out there when you do both...

I cross over most of those genre's I can say that the only important thing is no matter what the genre, there are musicians who serve the song and strive to make music with the folks around them and those that don't. Genre has nothing to do with it.

Lesson's are cool. You don't need to go every two weeks though. There are any number of things that can be learned trough self study. Find a decent open mic and hang. Maybe you get a free lesson out of the deal. Offer to roadie for the best guy in town ... maybe you'll get a bunch of lessons from it, including the one about why you don't really want the SVT after all

ProgressiveFan · #17 12-02-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Well yes - you just haven't listened to enough Jazz yet ...

I have a question for you: Do you solely listen to jazz or do you enjoy other forms of music as well?

PinkFloydDan · #18 12-02-2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillBuckingham

When you compare the effort (emotional, physical, technical, musical) that goes in to creating great jazz compared with what's required to come out with a pop or rock hit, I don't think its possible to argue that the latter is art on the same level as good jazz.

p.s. Technique? I don't think so . . .

Oh whatever Will. That's the weakest statement in the history of music. It's all about one's own tastes. I can tally of dozens of rock epics that, IN MY OWN OPINION, blow any jazz standard out of the water.

Jazz is no more an art form or technique than rock is. Jazz is a creative form of music just like rock is. But, gee Will, sorry us rockers don't fit in your league.

That's laughable.

**Vorago** · #19 12-02-2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akami

There is no connection between the complexity of a song and the emotive content.

There is lots of very well played and enjoyable jazz out there virtually void of genuine emotional content and tons of examples of very simple blues numbers with enough human emotion to overdose on.

Thankyou for agreeing with me

Jeff Moote · #20 12-02-2005, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ProgressiveFan

How is my thread uncivilized. I am simply making an observation and looking for some input into it. That is not uncivilized at all.

Sorry, I didn't mean that this thread is uncivilized. I just meant that over in DB, they spend a lot less time talking about such observations and more about music.

This thread is just fine by me, and is stirring up interesting discussion!