Keyboardist who HATES my AMP!!! & Volume in general...

[rodl2005]

Well as I mentioned earlier in my thread'got to try out the NV610 & 300PRO properly...." here is the full story of our keyboardist.
I'll call him Phil for now....as that's a nickname he HATES also
Phil's been with the band since it's expansion from a 4piece blues/soul/li'l funk band to a 7-8 piece funk/soul/disco band about 9 yrs ago- (& in a small city like this one, that's quite a feat-keeping a band 2gether & successful for anywhere NEAR that amount of time!!) & Phil is reliable, a good player, nice guy, funny, approx. 50 y.o., whingeing, whining, pedantic, obsessive...to name a few. Now this problem started about 3-4 yrs ago:- he hate's the band being too loud!!! By too loud I mean a fairly loud(not really loud at all-our drummer's just turned 60y.o.-is one of the best around-great technique & probly just has a loud kit- I don't find it too loud at all- & I'm careful about my ears, tho I don't wear plugs).
A few yrs ago our guitarist's amp ( a 60's Valve Maton 40w) went down & he had to borrow a mates Fender H.R.Deville 4x10. Now, being a guitarist with a new toy, he played a bit too loud for a while, & turned down when requested, tho the band's volume went UP a bit to compensate-a Good thing really as audiences seemed to think! Phil STARTED whinging then. But he quit after the orig. Gtr amp returned-altho as I said the band's vol. HAD increased a bit!
About 3 yrs ago, I had a mate give me his cheap brand Solid state bass amp-400w Ashton-cheap Aus. - I was going thru a ''I'm bored w/ my sound" time & liked the amp! I thought-"if this P.o.s. amp sounds this good, what does a "good' solid state amp sound like???( I'd been using my old Modded tube amp for abou 10 yrs thru a EV TL115 cab).
So-MY journey began- I got an AMpeg B2R-loved it.. after a while got a SVT3PRO for some tube warmth I felt the B2R missed. Of course I upgraded my 1x15 cab to a SVT410HLF- all this 'modernised' the band's sound & brought UP the bass in the mix- a good thing for Soul/funk etc...
Phil started complaining at times that we-the band- were too loud... that the bands that played this music originally weren't this loud-(HA see clip with Bootsy behind James Brown & the wall of SVT's!!!!!!!!!!).
Then we got our current drummer-as previous drummer had to leave- & he's louder than our previous one! THIS starts Phil complaining pretty much every gig now!
During all this time Phil's bought new keyboards & is SO obsessive about 'em. Once during a Gay & lesbian gig-the 'lip sync' act on B4 us were standing side of stage waiting to go on, & one of the "girls" put a tissue on his keyboard-Phil runs up & removes the tissue-why-I don't know -what damage could IT have caused?????????
Phil Has to be at least 2 metres from his rig- or- too loud/can't hear- I know this BUT put up with it sometimes so we can play!!!!!... can't be on same side of stage as Gtr- therefore has to be on MY side! OK by me-as most things are!
We set up EVERY gig around Phil & where he can be (almost-not really) Happy!
Back to the volume.....his gear is another story
Sure, the band's volume was rising a bit, at gigs w/out F.O.H. support for instruments & at full F,O.H. PA's. BUT audiences were LOVING it even more! Our current drummer IS louder than our other one's, but ISN't too loud for the rest of the 7 ppl in band!
So... a li'l while back, AFTER I went 'back to my roots' & got another ALL tube amp, I 'Joked' to Phil saying I'm gonna get an 810 cab, coz I put the 410 on a crate anyway- Phil nearly has a Heart attack - I assured him I was joking........
Then a good price on the Bergantino NV610 came around, I grabbed it, & Phil is 'silently' FUMING! I assured him I won't be ANY louder -just clearer etc....BUT last gig-he told me after it, that he could hear every note of my 'beautiful playing'-means while he liked my playing -it was TOO F*******loud!!!

AND it's NOT just Volume-it's almost everything! The keyboards not being able to be touched(every time I'm carrying any gear past 'em he quickly runs up to them & put's HIS body between me & the Keys - I've been gigging for 28yrs & I know how to carry/move gear & NOT hit anything valuable!) At soundcheck for a lotta gigs he has already been in the ear of the venue manager re him having enough room/a safe place to put his cases/ not anything to TOUCH the keyboards/ the fireplace cannot be lit, as it's too close to the keyboards/cant open curtains as sun would..../stage too small/etc...... BAD for US as a band!!! Getting to a point where we're gonna have to put the hard word on him.... as much as we ALL love him!
BTW I've left out HEAPS here just so it's NOT TOO LONG!
sorry to 'rave on'
Rod.

[JLW]

Kick him out.

[tbone409]

applause
that was one of the most thought out rants i've heard in a while, but you have had 3-4 years to think about it
but this guy is a _______ don't let him ruin the band

[i_got_a_mohawk]

I get protective of my amp and basses, i wouldnt want people leaving crap on them, out of principle, not out of them causing damage.

But on the volume thing, why doesnt he just wear ear plugs? (sorry if that was mentioned, i only skim read as my eye sight is being pretty terrible atm)

[sedan_dad]

He's too old.
He's gone lame.Shoot him.

[denton57]

Sounds like he is adding a lot of negativity to the situation. Do you really need a keyboard player anyway?

[BigMikeW]

Originally Posted by sedan_dad

He's too old.
He's gone lame.Shoot him.

+1

[rodl2005]

Mohawk- I'm protective of my gear too, but a tissue-???? this was an UNUSED tissue BTW.......& also HE knows that WE KNOW how he's protective & would ALWAYS take a wide berth of his gear!
Re- earplugs - he 'wont use them... cant....not even in ear monitoring?- no.... noway.....back in the day they didn't use that.....???????
"Shoot him"..... think U got the idea lol !!!!!

Yep we've had a LONG time 2 think about it & we ALL LOVE the guy BUT........ It's his only source of income also-so too bad 4 him- 1. if he keeps complaining-he's out.= NO $$$
2. if he's just doin it 4 the $$$$ = NO GOOD anyway!

Yep Denton.. he IS adding negative vibes.... WE DO need a keyboardist, but we've got 'em lining up to play w/ us!!!!

Thanx for yr thoughts guys! Appreciate it! AND taking the TIME(1/2 hr????) to read it!
Will let U know the outcome.

[4Mal]

sounds like maybe time for a chat. It's pretty tough to keep stage volume in line with that music and that large a band.

I'm sensitive to the volume out in the house. If we're too loud - we need to turn down. Period. If the audience and the venue are happy - we're oK. I wantto be asked back- venue depending I mught not want to come back but I at least want it to be my decision!

I'm in favor of letting the FOH do as much work as possible but there is a certain amount you have to have in order to get some semblance of balance on stage.

So just to make things easier - tip your cab away from him. Maybe switch sides depending on where you and he are situated. I like hi hat side and I've generally moved key's over to the other side. Back in my large band (5 to 9 ) days we generally placed the drums and key's on opposite sides on risers and gave 'em each an extra monitor. Guitar, bass, horns etc went in the center. You might try something like that and see if you can find him a quiet spot.

In general longevity counts. Good keyboardists are scarcer than hen's teeth IME. I'd rather work a bit to rehab the scenario - up to a point. If the band as a whole get's to the point then - say buh, bye - nice flyin' which ya - watch your step - don't back into the prop - it would be a dis-ass'ter! See Ya - wouldn't want to be ya - you get the idea...

[turcmic]

2 options :

1- shoot him - buy a computer and use midi files / the down side is that you may go to jail

2- buy him in-ear monitors or ears plugs or a plexyglass cage or a riser so he could be behind the amps

are you sure you don't wanna kick him out?

[Blues Cat]

Cliff notes?

[joegeezer]

Sounds like a whingein pommy!!

[Warr Tapper]

Time for a "band meeting". Tell him if he is not happy, leave. Being protective of gear is okay, but he sounds a little over the top. How can a 7-8 piece band NOT be a little loud? It's impossible with all that manpower. Tell him to lighten the **** up, and have fun, or quit. Don't carry his equipment if he doesn't like the way you do it. Did this jerk ever hear of earplugs? Last but not least, turn up a little bit each time you play a gig or practice, just to annoy him , and show him the low end won't be pushed around!

[jasonbraatz]

Sounds like a keyboard player all right.

[rodl2005]

4Mal- re putting him in a quieter place- try a block away.... We've tried everything-him on opposite side to me/to the Guitar/to the Horns....He's next 2 me coz I'm the most empathetic towards him!!!!! & am less prone to promote 'piercing' noises-as we ALL know Guitar, horns do ALL the time!!! ;-) BTW... I do tip my cab away from him-heck I'd put a cotton wool wall up if it made him happy!- & it looked cool ;-)... THE ONLY time he's happy is when the stage is BIG enough for him to be far enough away from the drums that the cymbals don't worry him, & also he's far enough away from his OWN amp for his comfort!

Turcmic- getting him behind the amps & far enough away from the drums IS the answer-trouble is MOST stages here aren't that big- in fact we're often squashed in as we're a 7-8piece band.

Warr Tapper- exactly a 7-8pce band CANNOT generate a fair bit of noise-sheer fact of 1 or 2 horns, & acoustic drums-let alone gtr amp,bass amp & keys amp!!!!!
All- we DO take into consideration the levels(heck we play weddings/corporate functions ALL the time & at a lot of 'em we have to be V.QUIET-especially for 1st set!!!!
The audience NEVER says we're too loud! We ASK 'em!!! They uysually say "TURN UP!" We're all long serving muso's who've all been playing live for years & so we're very considerate re the F.O.H. PA sound-we ALWAYS ask the soundman if we need to turn down/what he/she wants etc. So we KNOW how to get a good sound-whether it's with a small vocal PA type gig or FULL PA sound out front.
Yep - It's time for a talk- & as ststed above- good keys players ARE hens teeth-especially here-small population!!!! So we don't want Phil to go.....but.....
As I got to souncheck last gig he started on me B4 I'd said a word..."how can I play like this...look I can't set up with this light here, the curtain's here, so I can't get MY amp back far enough....etc.... Bottom line- NOT MY PROBLEM- & as he'd started on me.... I replied in the fashion of- "Man if U got this problem-which happens all the time, why don't you call the venue B4 & arrange things to your liking?" He said HAH!!! I don't think YOU'D do that? "I Darn well would" I replied. & so on.

[broerevb]

Originally Posted by jasonbraatz

Sounds like a keyboard player all right.

They're just too used to play the highs, mids and lows all by themselves.

Ours almost got that idea, but I just put a huge monitor next to him, mucho keys, poquito other things. He does let us use his racks as a bar, I have to admit.

Aren't in-ears a solution to this?

[guy n. cognito]

Sounds to me like a long-festering issue that could possibly be resolved with an open conversation.

[Psycho Ward]

OK, I’m a keyboard player first and bass player second… well, maybe third, but I’ll add this.

It has always been hard to amplify keys, especially for stage monitoring. Partially because the frequency range, most keys can play lower than a bass guitar and higher than a piccolo and until just recently there haven’t been any amps that could cover that wide of spectrum and sound good. Out side of a small PA or high end studio monitors, we can’t hear ourselves when the amps are amp’n and the drums are a drum’n.

I think your keyboard player is suffering from a case of sonic bliss. It’s not that the band is too loud, it’s he can’t get loud enough. He’s missing the subtle nuances of his sounds and that kills his inspiration and that leads to frustration. I’ve got news for him; he ain’t ever going to hear the intricate details of his boards in a band situation. His best option would be the in ear monitors, and there will be trade off there too.

I’m very protective of my keys too, but after touring for over twenty years with artist, doing outdoor gigs, state fairs, rodeos and flying my stuff all over the world, he need to get over it! If taking his rig out to do real world gigs causes him so much worry and concern he needs to leave his prime gear at home and buy some used stuff off eBay. Stuff you can put a lit cigarette down on it, spill a beer on, wipe buggers on it and not care!

Finally I’ll say this, I love my bass amp! For my keyboard amp these days I use a Bergantino HT112 (or two if needed) and a MarkBass Club S450, I can hear every note and shake the floor. It’s the first keyboard rig that I’ve ever had that’s been awarded the coveted phrase “The keys are too damn loud!!!”

[rodl2005]

GREAT POST PSycho Ward!!!!!!!!!!!! I AGREE whole heartedly with ALL U say there-well dunno about spillin' beer into it! ;-)

But as I said -he won't use "in ear's" & & EVEN has the GALL to say that bands in the 60's & '70's didn't play that loud!!! HA HA !!! when I hear about some of the SPL's THE WHO played at!! Whew! As I ALSO said- we don't actually play that loud- we're a funk/soul band for Gods Sake!!! Not Heavy rock/metal....etc.... We have LOTS of GAPS in our music too-Sly & Family Stone's Sing a Simple Song for example-gaps-funk-gaps...........
Bottom line: we all Love him (to death?????) & love his Playing so Hopefully with a little more talking, we can get SOME compromise.
All the band HOPE so!
Thanx for yr replies.
Some good suggestions there.....but'll hold of shooting him for now ;-)
Cheers,
Rod.

[NickyBass]

Originally Posted by rodl2005

Re- earplugs - he 'wont use them... cant....not even in ear monitoring?- no.... noway.....back in the day they didn't use that.....???????

Odd. I'm sure he's playing a newer keyboard. He's not still lugging around a B3, so why not just stick some foam in his ears??