Let's be honest here...

HeadyVan Halen · #1 09-22-2011, 06:10 AM

I'm probably just like you. I love 'real' music. I don't know who Katy Perry is,I thought Lady Gaga was a man and really thought 'Baby' by Justin Bieber was sung by a girl until roughly a year ago....but.....
And while i can't stand the style of that music, the production is usually really, really good.

What is it about your (my) original recording that's missing?
I've heard many, many original, independent CD's along with about 100+ songs of my own and there is something missing.
Not instrumentation, (we can play) not vocals (we can sing) but a certain 'IT' factor.

Is it the mix?
Is there not enough tracks to make the sound thick?
Is it the $40 microphones?
Is it the alcohol?

Any testimonies?

BassChuck · #2 09-22-2011, 08:40 AM

Anyone who can draw a line between "real" music and .... well whatever the rest is, would do well to be in touch with the writing and thinking of John Cage.

WalterBush · #3 09-22-2011, 08:48 AM

It's the mix, the quality of equipment used to track (mics, pres, and plugin bundles costing more than cars), the rooms that any vocals or acoustic instruments are tracked in, as well as the experience of a producer that knows how to use sounds to take up space without sounding cluttered.

And finally, the mastering house. Pay a real mastering engineer to master your next project, and you'll be amazed at the difference.

Peg_legs · #4 09-22-2011, 09:01 AM

If I may back up a bit, those musicians you mentioned have a producer without an ego attached to any one instrument. I am constantly battling egos with the people I play with, with every one of them wanting to be some sort of "god" on their instrument. That usually impacts the SONG in a negative way. It also shows up in the guitarists wanting space in my frequencies. Or each instument tuning to how they sound good alone, but awful in the mix.

Waffles and Scotch · #5 09-22-2011, 10:10 AM

IMO it's money. We recorded drums in studio A at Morrisound Studios and Tom Morris worked with us. He records/mixes Trans-Siberian Orchestra's stuff, and he said they'd spent 8 months in the studio on an album they were doing. We were there for ~8 hours and it was $145/hr. So the money they spent on their album must have been ridiculous, despite the discount I'm sure they got. The mixing board in that studio is ~$1,000,000...

When you consider the cost of all that time spent recording and mixing/mastering, you're up in the 6 digit range...

Muttleybass · #6 09-22-2011, 10:10 AM

What's missing?

64 tracks of layered keyboards, sampled drum machines, autotune and enough studio effects to make a person go insane, the best session players in the business, in the best studios, with the cream of engineers, producers, and mastering... All doing music that's written and engineered with a dance beat to get girls on the dance floor.

echoSE7EN · #7 09-22-2011, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muttleybass

What's missing?

64 tracks of layered keyboards, sampled drum machines, autotune and enough studio effects to make a person go insane, the best session players in the business, in the best studios, with the cream of engineers, producers, and mastering... All doing music that's written and engineered with a dance beat to get girls on the dance floor.

This ^.

Since switching from "live" instruments to DAW and MIDI, I am so much happier with the quality of my recordings. I still record my bass as a live track (both mic'ed and DI'd), but I utilize all of the bells and whistles of the DAW and related plug-ins to get the sound I'm after. My "drummer" is a combination of my Roland Juno, an Alesis SR-18, and EZdrummer (and a bunch of MIDI add-ons). I plug my keyboard directly into my interface for use with either MOTU DP7 or Garageband. The guitar is either ran direct (similar to the keys), or it's actually a written-out track in Guitar Pro which has been exported to MIDI, and then tweaked within the DAW.

These recordings can be tossed to the guys I play with (on rare occasion these days) along with the sheets from Guitar Pro, and then have everything at their fingertips. My MBP and Motu Microbook make transporting a "studio" a snap.

Now, if I need something to swing a bit, or have some slightly unorthodox feel to it, I'll grab the live instruments. However, the albums and records you're describing are created using more virtual instruments than live instruments, IMHO.

jlane72t · #8 09-22-2011, 10:22 AM

"Recording engineer" is as much artist as "musician", and a scientist to boot.

Recordings managed by someone without plenty of experience and training in that craft
are bound to sound as far from "professional"
as music performed by musicians without plenty of experience and training in that craft

it's much more than slidin' sliders.

**peledog** · #9 09-22-2011, 10:39 AM

Studio mastering/compression and BBE Sonic Maximizer - among other things.

Bieber has talent, but he will never be a 'real musician' because he's being sold as today's 'David Cassidy' or 'Leif Ericson' Putting out crap songs for pre-teen girls.

Anyone hear from Hanson lately?

hrodbert696 · #10 09-22-2011, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muttleybass

What's missing?

64 tracks of layered keyboards, sampled drum machines, autotune and enough studio effects to make a person go insane, the best session players in the business, in the best studios, with the cream of engineers, producers, and mastering... All doing music that's written and engineered with a dance beat to get girls on the dance floor.

Also +1. One of my daughters likes this stuff - or now, is moving toward "used to" like it, thankfully. My reaction to most of it is that it's overproduced. A computer can play a song flawlessly but I want to hear skin scraping along the strings. Current pop has great production values but minimal humanity, as far as I'm concerned.

teleharmonium · #11 09-22-2011, 11:39 AM

It's everything. The songs, the arrangements, the rooms, the engineering skill, the mixing skill and style, the gear, and the mastering. You've got to have all of the ingredients in place. The songs and arrangements don't necessarily need to be good or interesting from a musicians' point of view, it's more about whether they are well suited to the type of presentation you are talking about. Those are simple songs that are heavily decorated in certain ways that are part of that style.

But if you want to do stuff on your own to approximate specific recordings, it's possible to narrow the gap by working hard at it, putting the right kind of resources into it, and making the right decisions.

I don't care about those styles, but from reading articles and web posts about recording I've absorbed some info anyway, you could do the same. Big budget pop music in recent years usually seems to involve high track counts and automated mixing on SSL consoles and a lot of it uses submixes with specific high end compressors and EQs on each buss and maybe also on the final buss. Money reverbs are also necessary. Delay sends and returns are automated so they are mostly audible at the ends of lines, not in the middle, so you can still understand the words.

There's a few people that specialize in that music and work with the biggest clients, you could look for interviews with them or discussions about them on Gearslutz.

HeadyVan Halen · #12 09-22-2011, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TF Ghost

IMO it's money. We recorded drums in studio A at Morrisound Studios and Tom Morris worked with us. He records/mixes Trans-Siberian Orchestra's stuff, and he said they'd spent 8 months in the studio on an album they were doing. We were there for ~8 hours and it was $145/hr. So the money they spent on their album must have been ridiculous, despite the discount I'm sure they got. The mixing board in that studio is ~$1,000,000...

When you consider the cost of all that time spent recording and mixing/mastering, you're up in the 6 digit range...

$1,000,000?
So the guy at GC was lying when he sold me my 8-track ZOOM MRS 802 and said it was just as good?....shocking.
But hey, it burns CD's.
I'll use the power of wishful thinking then and wait until the 'Big Boys' come and knock on my door offering to record us...
I'll keep you guys posted on how it goes.

southgabass · #13 09-22-2011, 04:16 PM

Your 8-track ZOOM MRS 802 is good.... maybe not for commercial usage in songs to be played on top 40s and such but it is good... it lets you record your part, and play them back... back in the day an 8-track recording was TOPS... if you're cd from there has potential you'll be picked up and taken to a studio with the "super boards" =D...

KillianRussell · #14 09-22-2011, 04:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peg_legs

If I may back up a bit, those musicians you mentioned have a producer without an ego attached to any one instrument. I am constantly battling egos with the people I play with, with every one of them wanting to be some sort of "god" on their instrument. That usually impacts the SONG in a negative way. It also shows up in the guitarists wanting space in my frequencies. Or each instument tuning to how they sound good alone, but awful in the mix.

The above is pretty profund

southgabass · #15 09-22-2011, 04:38 PM

yup... and as a musician (not a bassist, guitarist, drummer, singer, cello player..... etc) your goal should be making the song great.... not making YOUR part great, if it doesn't help the song constructively it shouldn't be there... =D

KillerPenguin · #16 09-22-2011, 04:51 PM

Sure, its all the money spent on recording and all that...

But honestly, I couldnt care less about what they are doing over there. People just eat up that garbage, at least till a great band comes along. When Nirvana's Nevermind came out, it knocked Michael Jackson from the top of the charts in less than a week. And im sure they didnt have Jackson's producer or "beat to make girls dance".

teleharmonium · #17 09-23-2011, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerPenguin

Sure, its all the money spent on recording and all that...

But honestly, I couldnt care less about what they are doing over there. People just eat up that garbage, at least till a great band comes along. When Nirvana's Nevermind came out, it knocked Michael Jackson from the top of the charts in less than a week. And im sure they didnt have Jackson's producer or "beat to make girls dance".

I'm not really seeing an objective difference here. One man's garbage is another man's nirvana. Those are different styles of music, and Nirvana's production was relatively more straightforward, but it was still pro level production of short, fairly simple pop tunes. And their next album after that had a six figure fee for the producer.

Also, "Nevermind" came out in September, and would not displace the Michael Jackson album as #1 until January.

WJGreer · #18 09-23-2011, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peg_legs

If I may back up a bit, those musicians you mentioned have a producer without an ego attached to any one instrument. I am constantly battling egos with the people I play with, with every one of them wanting to be some sort of "god" on their instrument. That usually impacts the SONG in a negative way.

+1. I've read that a lot of the best producers are bass players - we are trained to listen to the whole band and our contribution is designed support the music rather than "occupy" it.

Couple articles:

METRO GWAPO®...hindi ako nabibili! - Why Bass Players Make The Best Producers (sorry about the pop-ups)

Do Bass Players Make Better Producers?! - maxproud channel - YouTube

Also, live drums are exceedingly hard to record well. It takes really expensive microphone equipment and a very sophisticated room to accomplish the polish we hear on pro recordings.