Local band song copyright situation..

[__HM__]

Okay, Im in a band as a bassist, we've been meaning to kick the guitarist for a while (We've been looking for a replacement in the meantime), simply for jerking us around one too many times. But that's another story..

We decided to go get a copyright for all our songs and stuff before we kicked him. Apparently though, he has already copyrighted all the songs (which we all had an equal part in writing.)

What can we do about this without completely starting over from scratch? What exactly does the fact that he holds the copyrights for our songs mean? Any help/advice would be greatly appreciated.. Thank you guys!

[skychief]

it means you cannot record those songs which are copyrighted and sell the recordings WITHOUT his expressed permission. And if he gives approval, he may require royalties from any $$$ you make from said recordings. Im not sure about performing the songs live, tho. Hate to say it, but if you boot the the guy with all the copyrights, you'll need to start from scratch.

[ShredderMaximus]

Metallica-The Four Horsemen
Megadeth-The Mechanix
Always wondered how this works, no info for you but I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

[ModulusQ5-122]

who wrote the songs? I understand everybody plays their part in puting a song together but nomally there is a sole writer in the band that most of the songs come from. Did he write the lyrics and most of the music? If he did I dont blame him, but if not you just got screwed.

[catyak]

Not a lawyer, but my understanding is that US copyright laws don't work that way. The group has a copyright in the work the moment that it's written down or recorded. Unless the band has an agreement that allows this person to take out an individual copyright, it's invalid. You have to prove that it was a group work, though.

Of course you will need proof that the group created the work. The copyright process makes it easier since it shows a date.

You could try talking some sense into the person. Go to the US Copyright Office's website and print out some basic information on the process. Start at U.S. Copyright Office - Frequently Asked Questions.

If you've got the proof, it should be obvious that he'd lose in court. Unfortunately, it'd likely cost more than it's worth to go to court.

[SLaPiNFuNK]

If HE went out and had them copyrighted on his own, outside of the band... thats another story... He had them copyrighted without the rest of the bands consent?

interesting...

in for popcorn...

[__HM__]

Yeah, he copyrighted them completely behind our backs. We heard through his ex girlfriend, and we checked it out, it's legit. He owns the copyright for the band name, songs, everything. He ONLY wrote the lead guitar parts. Our singer and rhythm guitarist wrote all the lyrics, rhythm guitar and bass parts (I just got into the band. Great timing, right?) Drummer wrote all his own parts. The guy who only wrote his part has the copyright.. And yeah, it's rather ****ty.

[SLaPiNFuNK]

Check out what Catyak said (while I was writing)...

[JohnMCA72]

Originally Posted by catyak

Not a lawyer, but my understanding is that US copyright laws don't work that way. The group has a copyright in the work the moment that it's written down or recorded. Unless the band has an agreement that allows this person to take out an individual copyright, it's invalid. You have to prove that it was a group work, though.

Of course you will need proof that the group created the work. The copyright process makes it easier since it shows a date.

You could try talking some sense into the person. Go to the US Copyright Office's website and print out some basic information on the process. Start at U.S. Copyright Office - Frequently Asked Questions.

If you've got the proof, it should be obvious that he'd lose in court. Unfortunately, it'd likely cost more than it's worth to go to court.

This is all correct, however the problem you're going to have is proving that they were your (collective) songs, not his. He did not "copyright" the songs, he registered them. Registration gives him a strong claim to ownership. You'll have to come up with something to counter it (i.e. proof that you wrote the material, & when).

Most likely, it won't be worth the trouble.

[Ubersheist]

Originally Posted by __HM__

Yeah, he copyrighted them completely behind our backs. We heard through his ex girlfriend, and we checked it out, it's legit. He owns the copyright for the band name, songs, everything. He ONLY wrote the lead guitar parts. Our singer and rhythm guitarist wrote all the lyrics, rhythm guitar and bass parts (I just got into the band. Great timing, right?) Drummer wrote all his own parts. The guy who only wrote his part has the copyright.. And yeah, it's rather ****ty.

When you say "he copyrighted them," do you mean he registered a copyright with the U.S. Copyright Office or he registered them with ASCAP or some other royalties company? If he registered with the Copyright office, and you don't have any tangible evidence of your song (a recording or lyrics written somewhere), then you may be SOL.

Here's what you do AFTER you've kicked him out, so long as he didn't register it with the Government.

1. Go get a lawyer friend, a paralegal buddy, or go to one of those legal websites, and draft up a good, legal sounding document stating that he does not own the copyright to the song, only 1/5 of it),
2. Record the songs (copyright law allows you to do this to any artist with or without their consent, with a few stipulations).
3. Register your song with BMI, ASCAP, or SEASAC with the guitarist listed as one of the co-authors.
4. When your band starts selling tons of albums and has it placed in an episode of "Hell's Kitchen," get him 1/10 of the sales revenue for the songs that he wrote. Either do this through ASCAP/BMI, where it'll automatically give him 1/5 the publishing rights money since he's listed as an author, and none of the mechanical rights since you recorded the song after he departed.
5. When you sell CDs at shows, or iTunes songs or other revenues that don't go through ASCAP, get him 1/10 of the proceeds on his songs, too.

If you're not really making money on those songs, nor do you see yourself making much money on those songs, then don't worry about him. He might act like a jerk or something, but there won't be anything to stop you from playing your songs.

[Ubersheist]

Originally Posted by JohnMCA72

This is all correct, however the problem you're going to have is proving that they were your (collective) songs, not his. He did not "copyright" the songs, he registered them. Registration gives him a strong claim to ownership. You'll have to come up with something to counter it (i.e. proof that you wrote the material, & when).

Most likely, it won't be worth the trouble.

If he registered them with a performing rights organization (BMI, SESAC, etc.), then it's easy for the guitarist to change the ownership/publishing rights of the song. He may need some encouragement (legally or otherwise) to do so, but it's easy to do in a technical/be "done with it in an hour" sort of way.

If he registered it with the copyright office... That's an issue.

The other thing is that if he registered it with ASCAP or BMI, the OP could reregister the song in addition to his registration. Then, when the songs make money, they can be directed to the OP band's specific ASCAP account. If ASCAP picks up on it (which is fairly possible), then the door to ownership claims and legal bs is thrown open. If this route is taken, and it's associated with a legalese-type letter, almost certainly, the guitarist will back down and still be able to retain 1/5 ownership of the song.

Just remember, until someone makes some money off that song, then it's a worthless song in the eyes of the law. In civil cases like these, the law really only care about things that are worth money to them. No money made = no reason for legal battles over the song.

[fdeck]

Offer him 1/5 of the proceeds from album sales in return for unlimited performance rights.

[ggunn]

IANAL, but...

Unless there is significant money being made with the songs, don't worry about it. Kick him out and keep playing the songs. Address the copyright issue if it ever goes to court, which it probably won't.

If he starts another band and is playing that music, though, you probably won't be able to stop him without spending money on a lawyer and going through a bunch of legal stuff. If the music isn't making money, it would probably not be worth it.

Most original music really isn't worth the money it would cost to pursue a copyright issue through legal means.

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Forgive me asking, but is the material worth fighting for?

Additionally, is the material so original, it can really be regarded as original?
The tune and/or the lyrics?

I wouldn't worry either way, keep playing and writing new material.


BTW, you guys intended to screw him over for being a jerk, but he got there first. Kinda hard to ignore the irony in that .

Regards
Sam

[Dirk Diggler]

Yep move on with your own new stuff.

And learn how to control your music and have a meeting with the rest of the members and discuss how much everyone in the band owns the new tunes. It's really simple like, I wrote the lyrics, he wrote the chord changes, we split it 50/50 or if the 2nd chorus was written by someone else you could give them another percentage. Talk it out before chaos happens.

Take this as a learning experience.
Good luck,
Dirk

[fdeck]

Note that copyright law allows you to perform a parody of a song.

Just saying.

[oldrookie]

Bring your checkbook. This will get expensive.

[Dirk Diggler]

Wow fdeck, now that is devious and hilarious at the same time.
Good spin to the positive.
Dirk