Micing crappy drums in large PA. Help needed

theshadow2001 · #1 04-08-2007, 03:56 PM

So my friends have a gig in a few weeks. Chances are I'll end up doing sound for them. I'm not a sound engineer nor am I very experienced in the field. However I do know more about PA's than the band combined.

Thing is its in a club with a house PA which requires everything to be mic'ed including drums. Now this I know very little about. I know their equipment isn't great(really low end drums) and I know they won't have any gates or limiters available. Just the desk which I believe has an onboard graphic with either 3 or 4 band eq with semi paramteric mid controls per channel and a set of rented drum mics (I don't know what mics).

Has anyone any suggestions to help me pull this off? Any techniques to stop bad ringing out/resonance from the drums and stoppping them from feeding back.

I suggested renting drum triggers which would probably be easier to handle but they aren't available to rent.

The PA is probably around the 3000watt plus mark

There's no house engineer either.

feet_ · #2 04-09-2007, 11:07 AM

one on the edge of the Bass Drum Skin, not in the hole

2 if possible above the kit. 1 above the ride/floor tom area. 1 above the hi hat.

and one near the snare, might have to lower the volume.

then eq it all. the 2 above should add to the snare/bass drum mics, to even out the volumes.

so 4 mic total

theshadow2001 · #3 04-09-2007, 02:45 PM

The drum set is two mounted toms, one floor tom, snare, kick, hi-hat, one crash and ride.

Is it possible to just use a set of clip on ics and kick mic without overheads.

Use the snare mic to pick up the hi-hats and the tom mics to pick up the crash and ride. Can this work and what would the mic placement be like?

Any suggestions about dampening to help avoid feed back and too much ringing out? Those plastic rings on the toms using duck tape on the skins (stuff I've seen used before but don't know how or when to use it)

badstonebass · #4 04-09-2007, 11:18 PM

Simplest choice IMO. Mic bass(with a bass mic!)....Mic snare with 57 or equivalent.......mic rest of kit with 2 overhead condensors. Works well 100% of the time.

Almost forgot muffle those crappy drums with muffle rings or the equivalent. Back in the day we used duct tape and tissue. They should then sound really decent.

feet_ · #5 04-10-2007, 07:10 AM

+1!

if you are renting mics , get the old standby, sm 57 and 58s

you have to mic overhead, or the cymbals will sound like crap and distort.

ditch the clip on mics.

if you wanna muffle the snare, you can try to put a towel on the head, alah ringo star in Let It Be. but he was recording

theshadow2001 · #6 04-10-2007, 08:57 AM

Will going with the two overheads cause much trouble with stage wash and feedback? Will they be able to catch toms and hi-hats as well the cymbal and ride. will this cause any eq problems?

badstonebass · #7 04-10-2007, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theshadow2001

Will going with the two overheads cause much trouble with stage wash and feedback? Will they be able to catch toms and hi-hats as well the cymbal and ride. will this cause any eq problems?

The overheads will work to catch all the cymbals and toms. Place them behind your cymbals not above them. In other words in between the drummer and the cymbals if looking from above. When setting levels use the Toms as your guide. Now remember I said CONDENSORS......not just regular mics like a 57. It won't work unless you use condensors.

Stage wash and feedback is not a problem as long as you use the TOMS as the setting instrument.......OR you play at ungodly stage volumes near the drums.

theshadow2001 · #8 04-10-2007, 12:28 PM

I checked out the venue recently the stage is quite tight. The drummer is a hard hitter and the guitarists play on two half stacks. The gig is a bit beyond their experince so they are used to just running vocals and a DI'ed bass through the PA everything comes from stage. I'll most likely have to get everyone to turn down a bit. Woud I be right in saying the condensors are very directional and should point between the cymbals and toms and away from each other?

If they do go with overheads should i just go with a full set of clip ons as well or will that be more trouble than its worth

WalterBush · #9 04-10-2007, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theshadow2001

I checked out the venue recently the stage is quite tight. The drummer is a hard hitter and the guitarists play on two half stacks. The gig is a bit beyond their experince so they are used to just running vocals and a DI'ed bass through the PA everything comes from stage. I'll most likely have to get everyone to turn down a bit. Woud I be right in saying the condensors are very directional and should point between the cymbals and toms and away from each other?

If they do go with overheads should i just go with a full set of clip ons as well or will that be more trouble than its worth

Whether condensors are directional or not depends on their pickup pattern. A cardioid pattern, pointed inwards towards the cymbals, either in an x/y in front of the kickdrum or on either side, should work well.

Use clip-on mics if you want to hear the lower frequencies on the toms. Overheads will pick up the 'slap' but not the tone or punch of the toms. Either way, roll off the low mids and lows on the condensors to avoid picking up every bit of rumble from other instruments onstage, or even the footsteps of the band moving around. Boost the mids of the toms and roll off bass to keep them from sounding muddy. Remember that it's likely that the snare will be heard accoustically, and probably doesn't need much in the way of amplification, although it will need some. Mic the high hat separately if possible, and try to position the mike directly over the high hat to avoid picking up the snare as much as possible. Once again, roll off the high-hat's lows to avoid clunk and rumble.

You'll learn a lot real quick by soloing the channels each mic is hooked up to, during soundcheck, and playing with their position. As well, don't be scared to add high end and mids to the kick drum. If it's audible, you're less likely to need to crank the bass frequencies to get it to sound good in the mix, which means you have more power to devote to other instruments.

Have fun, and get to the club REAL early to start playing around, if at all possible. No amount of online advice is substitute for playing with the mics and listening to what each does.

theshadow2001 · #10 04-11-2007, 02:05 PM

I went out to have a look at the drums today. The toms really ring out after they are hit. I know drums do this but Im not sure to what extent is normal or if these do it more than higher quality ones. Plus the kick seems to set the whole kick resonating. Will this cause much problems expecially due to the lack of gates. Will it be a matter of eqing out those ring frequencies as best I can at the desk?

Petebass · #11 04-11-2007, 08:50 PM

Oh man this is where I get frustrated. It's not the sound guy's job to polish a turd. The sound guy's job is to make it louder and/or mix it so you can hear everything.

His drums are ringing huh? Throw him a tuning key and tell him not to talk to you again until he's fixed it! How else is he going to learn?

EDIT:- Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's not. I had one drummer come over and tell me "My mates says the drums sound like cardboard boxes". I replied, "You're mate is absolutely correct. That's exactly what they sound like!'. H didn't like it at the time but that drummer later thanked me. He had no idea his drums sound needed attention and took it upon himself to learn what he needed to know to fix it.

theshadow2001 · #12 04-11-2007, 10:53 PM

Im under no illusions of getting a good drum sound. I know nothing of the tunning of drums and im pretty sure the drummer isn't too far a head of me. Im just worried about feedback problems from the drums ringing out. I've seen it happen before with a drummer I've played with and it took a long time to sort out. Basically I have what I have to work with. I want to do the best I can, these guys are my friends after all. At the same time i fully support the saying of "crap in, crap out"

feet_ · #13 04-20-2007, 08:19 AM

dont forget the pillow/foam/blanket, inside the bass drum

Steve · #14 04-20-2007, 08:38 AM

A well place piece of duct tape on a drum head can do wonders.

Or, you could rent some Gates for the drum mics.

SteveC · #15 04-20-2007, 09:12 AM

We played a gig once where the sound guys were doing some experimenting. They used 2 mics - one for the kick and one overhead. I have never heard better drums - ever. I was surprised without one by the snare/hats but it worked really well.

Sometimes simple is better.