A moral dilemma

[stratovani]

First off, I don't know where to post this, so I'm guessing Miscellaneous is the place. If not, then mods, please, go ahead and move it.

Here's the problem. I play bass in our church worship team (which we call the Folk Group). On the stage I stand next to the synth player, Kyle. Now Kyle is a really good player, and he knows music and reads music as well. Me, I can't read music (although I'm trying to learn Bass Clef) but I can read chord charts and at times I'll improvise a bass line, something that sounds good to me. The worship leader doesn't mind if I do, as long as it sounds good and goes along with the song. Now last Sunday at Mass we were playing a song called You Are Mine, and it starts with a Bb, then a Eb/Bb, a Bb again, then an F/A, then a Gm7, and so on. I was playing Bb, Eb, Bb, F, Gm, and I thought it sounded all right. As soon as the song ended he piped up and said I should have played the second note of the "slash" chord, that's how it's always done, and every bassist he knows does it that way. At that point it was all I could do to control my temper. It's not the fact that he was right, for all I know he probably was. My problem is that I absolutely hate getting unsolicited advice, however well-meaning. And I played like crap the rest of the Mass.

It's not the first time Kyle has done this. I can tolerate it if it's during rehearsal (even though he's almost never there), but never during a performance. It's like if Lennon would give McCartney unsolicited advice about how to play something in the middle of a concert. How would Paul have felt? My question is this: do I treat this like it's small potatoes, and humor him and just brush it off? Or do I take a stand and tell him how I feel, that it's not OK in my book to be giving me advice during a performance, however well-meaning or correct it is? After all, I've been playing since 1972, so it's not like I don't have a clue. Any advice (and I am soliciting it!)?

[kevteop]

Just say you're concentrating on the rest of the performance and that if he reminds you at the next rehearsal you'll try it out. If he shows up you can humour him and try it out, if he doesn't show up then you haven't broken your word.

Maybe he'll also get the message that you'd prefer advice in rehearsals rather than when you're performing.

[uethanian]

if lennon had given mccartney unsolicited advice, the beatles wouldnt have lasted a year

then again, you're not in the beatles, you're in a church band. it happens, but hopefully it doesn't happen often. i wouldn't make a big deal of it at a rehearsal, but at a performance...thats way out of line. give him a dirty look, or make it known that you're not afraid to argue your point (especially if he's giving wrong advice).

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by stratovani

Or do I take a stand and tell him how I feel, that it's not OK in my book to be giving me advice during a performance, however well-meaning or correct it is?

Take a stand but be professional about it. I would speak with worship leader and let him know what's up. Was Kyle aware of your lack of knowledge about slash chords before the performance? Why didn't he speak up at rehearsal?

During a performance is not the place to be giving advice on anything, especially since what you played didnt' sound bad or off-key or anything like that. It may be a technical over site, but not really a sonic mistake.

Since the worship leader didnt' say anything and I doubt the audience didn't hear anything incorrect it was minor at best. Kyle could have let it go and let you know later (the professional thing to do).

Read up on slash chords here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slash_chord

As far as controlling your temper, I've finally learned that free speech applies to everyone. When some one gives me advice or an opinion (even when the opinion is communicated in a poor manner), I thank them for their insight and let them know I'll give it consideration. This cuts of further discussion and validates the other person's input, which pretty much diffuses any situation and no bridges are burned. Everyone keeps calm.

I can then think about what they said and reply later, if necessary. But I haven't ruined my day by reacting emotionally to the comment.

It takes practice, but not allowing other people's comments and observations to negatively affect your emotions is a very powerful lesson to be learned and really will help keep your emotions on an even keel. You'll be much happier.

Once you learn this, people like Kyle won't be able to push your buttons because there won't be any buttons to push. Smart, manipulative people with keen observations of others learn what to say or do to get other people to do their bidding or even just to get them riled up for the fun of it.

Don't be the guy that gets manipulated emotionally by comments from other people.

[Spector_Ray]

Comments like this should be handled during rehearsals and after the performance, not during the performance. I mean, that's why a group practices, right? Just blow this off and talk to Kyle about it during practice.

Just because every bassist knows to play the second note of the slash chord, doesn't mean that there aren't other ways to play the song. He's just used to hearing the song a certain way. If you play something that sonically goes with the piece, no harm, no foul, IMHO.

[basste]

Just tell him that you must be different from all bassists he's already played with, and that's your way to play it.

[Bard2dbone]

Originally Posted by stratovani

First off, I don't know where to post this, so I'm guessing Miscellaneous is the place. If not, then mods, please, go ahead and move it.

Here's the problem. I play bass in our church worship team (which we call the Folk Group). On the stage I stand next to the synth player, Kyle. Now Kyle is a really good player, and he knows music and reads music as well. Me, I can't read music (although I'm trying to learn Bass Clef) but I can read chord charts and at times I'll improvise a bass line, something that sounds good to me. The worship leader doesn't mind if I do, as long as it sounds good and goes along with the song. Now last Sunday at Mass we were playing a song called You Are Mine, and it starts with a Bb, then a Eb/Bb, a Bb again, then an F/A, then a Gm7, and so on. I was playing Bb, Eb, Bb, F, Gm, and I thought it sounded all right. As soon as the song ended he piped up and said I should have played the second note of the "slash" chord, that's how it's always done, and every bassist he knows does it that way. At that point it was all I could do to control my temper. It's not the fact that he was right, for all I know he probably was. My problem is that I absolutely hate getting unsolicited advice, however well-meaning. And I played like crap the rest of the Mass.

It's not the first time Kyle has done this. I can tolerate it if it's during rehearsal (even though he's almost never there), but never during a performance. It's like if Lennon would give McCartney unsolicited advice about how to play something in the middle of a concert. How would Paul have felt? My question is this: do I treat this like it's small potatoes, and humor him and just brush it off? Or do I take a stand and tell him how I feel, that it's not OK in my book to be giving me advice during a performance, however well-meaning or correct it is? After all, I've been playing since 1972, so it's not like I don't have a clue. Any advice (and I am soliciting it!)?

While it's not the right time to give advice (I agree that that is what rehearsal is for) he was right. When you see a slash chord like 'Eb/Bb' it means 'Eb with a Bb bass' so he really was just trying to help you out.

[Pacman]

Kyle was right. He picked the wrong time to tell you, but he was right. Listen to him.

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by Pacman

Kyle was right. He picked the wrong time to tell you, but he was right. Listen to him.

+1

If you've been playing since 1972 and this is an issue... well, Kyle was right.

Has he mentioned this before?

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by Bard2dbone

When you see a slash chord like 'Eb/Bb' it means 'Eb with a Bb bass' so he really was just trying to help you out.

I learned something today. thank you for the unsolicited advice!

[DWBass]

Yep, what they all said. That's the whole purpose of slash chords. He was correct but those issues should be done during rehearsals. I guess since he doesn't make rehearsals, he chose performance time to tell you. Take a deep breath and let it go. At least you learned something new.

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by stratovani

I've been playing since 1972, so it's not like I don't have a clue. Any advice (and I am soliciting it!)?

Advice: He was right, you were playing the wrong notes. Learn to learn.

[MatticusMania]

But in all seriousness, the issue seems to be more that the keyboardist told him this during the gig. Now, if he said it in a kind, friendly way like "Just so you know" then no harm, no foul - during the gig or not. However, if he told you so in that condescending "matter of fact" way then that a little rude, on or off stage, though since he was correct, it could have flown a little better AFTER the gig, or before the next rehearsal. But again, you have to understand that the KB player is part of the band too, and he's looking out for the band's best interest, and maybe he wanted to let you know to prevent you from making that same mistake again in the gig. So, learn to take criticism, its not always fun, but it helps you too.

[stratovani]

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I've decided that I'm going to talk to him the next time I see him. I'll tell him that the information he gave me was correct,but that the timing could have been better. In my opinion things like this are better discussed at rehearsal rather than during the performance. After all, this could have waited, it was certainly not a serious error on my part, simply a fine point I may not have been aware of.

[JNowiski]

tell kyle to shut the F up, then go repent for saying the F word.

[MatticusMania]

Originally Posted by stratovani

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I've decided that I'm going to talk to him the next time I see him. I'll tell him that the information he gave me was correct,but that the timing could have been better. In my opinion things like this are better discussed at rehearsal rather than during the performance. After all, this could have waited, it was certainly not a serious error on my part, simply a fine point I may not have been aware of.

Yeah, you could do that, but still remember, he was giving you some good info that could have kept you from making that same mistake for the rest of the night. Did any other slash chords come up after that particular one? And did you then know the correct way to play them?

[thumpbass1]

Sounds like Kyle hit a sensitive spot with you, either by design or accident. As a bass player who plays on a church worship team I have empathy for you and what happened to you as I've worked with a lot of different keyboardists over the years, of varying abilities, and I've managed to work with all I've had to play with.

It sounds like you need to discuss whatever music your worship group is doing at rehearsal if possible. I get sheet music and chord charts that are usually written for solo piano/keyboard arrangement. I pretty much stay the course unless the arrangement just isn't happening to start with. I'll then discuss with the keyboardist any changes that I think will make the music flow better. It's a give and take between the both of us as musicians. If you honestly think that hitting the root note of a chord instead of some
harmonic interval that is written out for the bass part is better, then tell him up front prior to the performance if he can't be there for rehearsals. As for his " Every other bass player I know plays it that way." comment, he was out of line in that regard. I hope you both can take the high path on this one and work out your differences, so both of you can start making music as a team of musicians. It sounds like you are willing to work things out from your most recent post.

[cheezewiz]

Originally Posted by JNowiski

tell kyle to shut the F up, then go repent for saying the F word.

I LOL'd

[Philbiker]

Originally Posted by MatticusMania

Yeah, you could do that, but still remember, he was giving you some good info that could have kept you from making that same mistake for the rest of the night. Did any other slash chords come up after that particular one? And did you then know the correct way to play them?

I play bass in a Catholic Church and I can assure you they use these kinds of chords ALL TIME TIME. These and suspended fours and major seveths are all over the place in Catholic worship music, and often it's really important for the bass player to play them.

My brother Peter is a worship leader at his church and a brilliant songwriter*. I went to visit him a few months ago to play music with him, he told me that the regular bass player in his band was unfamiliar with the chord/bass note concept also. Peter was flummoxed by the situation, but explained the concept.

If there's a keyboard player, his bass clef definitely has the correct bass chords and it would have probably driven him nuts to hear the root on all these chords when he was playing! He may not be the best communicator in the world, and had just heard grating wrong notes for a whole song... Give him a break I say.

* Peter is a very good bass player in his own right also. One of the most musically talented people I've ever experienced.

[VroomVroom]

I'm going to toss out the dissenting opinion here (imagine that). Not only was Kyle right, he was right in correcting you at that time (maybe without the, "every bassist..." commentary, but still). You guys were performing, and his desire to ensure that the music improved for the remainder of that performance was wholly valid. I suspect he was frustrated in having to change his voicings after assuming that you'd be playing Bb, A, and then G over that chord progression.

I appreciate your sensitivity to unsolicited advice. However, instead of him coming to you at rehearsal, I'll suggest it should've been you going to him, or the bandleader, asking some questions about what those chord symbols mean. Of course, here I am offering unsolicited advice. Seriously - keep playing and chalk this up as one of a gazillion learning opportunities you'll encounter over the years.