Are Music Certificates of any Credibility?

[bearclaw]

I was just wondering if any of you guys or gals could shed a little lite and insight regarding online musical certificates? I have been checking out Berklee's(Boston) online certificate course curriculum and was debating whether or not it would be worth trying out? I know I would never be able to take on undergrad classes logistically speaking, because I live in NYC.

So, if anyone has some useful advice I would appreciate it tremendously. Thanks gang.

[Ibanezzer]

Do it for the learning purpose if that's your interest. With working in corporate america I can't speak of it's credibility. I did look into Berklee's online stuff a while back and had signed up for a class but dropped it last minute. The reason I had signed up was to partake in in a rigorous /accelerated path -- of which was something that I did not have the self discipline to do on my own nor was an appropriate level of coarse open to me via local colleges since I wasn't a music major. I still plan to eventually go through some of their courses but for now I'm focusing on finishing the existing degree I started.

On thing I found helpful with making the decision to sign up initially was that I purchased some of their books and videos used in the courses. These helped give me a better understanding of the level of material I'd be working on as well as some insight to the various instructors.

Danny Morris is one of the main bass teachers and though his DVD was rather short it gave you insight to his personality and playing style. I picked up both books and the DVDs via Music123.com, they seemed to have better prices than direct through Berklee's online store. I found them useful as stepping stones to help the decision. It is after all quite a lot of money.

It was this same time last year that I had signed up for a piano class and at the time they were running a special knocking off $100. I don't know if that's going on again but I'd be on the lookout for it.

[jmattbassplaya]

Unless you plan on being a studio musician or are doing it purely for educational purposes, I wouldn`t bother.

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by bearclaw

I was just wondering if any of you guys or gals could shed a little lite and insight regarding online musical certificates? I have been checking out Berklee's(Boston) online certificate course curriculum and was debating whether or not it would be worth trying out? I know I would never be able to take on undergrad classes logistically speaking, because I live in NYC.

So, if anyone has some useful advice I would appreciate it tremendously. Thanks gang.

The portion of the working world which is not reasonably relevant to your particular focus, which is to say most, will probably not care about your certificate, and regard a certificate as only marginably better than just an HS degree by itself. Online or not. It is my experience that even a full-fledged B.S. degree in music by an accredited, state-supported school means precious little to someone who is not a musician, or company/corporation which is of no musical relation.

Sorry to be harsh. Uh, I could go on, but I'll try to stay on-point and leave it there.

[JoZac21]

Originally Posted by Thunderthumbs73

The portion of the working world which is not reasonably relevant to your particular focus, which is to say most, will probably not care about your certificate, and regard a certificate as only marginably better than just an HS degree by itself. Online or not. It is my experience that even a full-fledged B.S. degree in music by an accredited, state-supported school means precious little to someone who is not a musician, or company/corporation which is of no musical relation.

Sorry to be harsh. Uh, I could go on, but I'll try to stay on-point and leave it there.

+1.

I went to Berklee for three years (for g****r/film-scoring) and quite honestly I didn't learn anything I couldn't have by simply picking some books. What I did gain from going there was the connections I made, the environment, constant access to rehearsal space... basically stuff you won't get from taking online courses. Anything you learn on your way to getting your "certification" you can learn by buying the books from Berklee Press.

On top of that, I have a bunch of friends who actually stuck with it and graduated from Berklee... and they get no more jobs than me, the drop out . I've never been asked if I went to school for music, let alone if I have certification when trying to get a gig. Not once.

Save the cash, buy some books. That, or actually go to a conservatory... if nothing else, it was fun.

[bearclaw]

Thank you for taking the time in giving me some feed back everyone. I am very interested in teaching bass at the collegiate or private school level actually, but do not have a music degree. This is why I asked if a certificate would look better than nothing?

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by bearclaw

Thank you for taking the time in giving me some feed back everyone. I am very interested in teaching bass at the collegiate or private school level actually, but do not have a music degree. This is why I asked if a certificate would look better than nothing?

Considering the above, the certificate will move the needle almost 0%. Even people with Masters in Music from an accredited, state-supported school have a difficult time finding work as a music teacher. A certificate will look better than nothing, but also will not effectively make you any more employable or attractive as a candidate for the job. Why? The bar for most music jobs (aside from running your own studio or going into business for yourself) is much, much higher.

To teach at college, you will need at least the Ph.D. in exactly the opening available to avoid having your resume sent to the trash bin without a second glance/thought- ie- you must have the Ph.D. expressedly in Renaissance music, if that is what the opening is, and not in Percussion. The second thing is you must know the right people. Forty people with Ph.D.s in Renaissance music who are impeccably qualified will see, and apply for that (hypothetical) job above. All the "on paper" qualifications are essential, but you need to stand out, and the essential way (but not only way) to do that is through a personal connection. Someone who knows someone, who is well-respected and whos own credentials are beyond reproach, and will personally vouch and go to bat for you. Even then, that doesn't guarantee you the job. But trust me, if you don't know someone who knows someone, regarding the job you're looking into, rest assured there is someone in the applicant pool who certainly does.

This is why I say, when considering doing anything in music as far as increasing your own educational standing is concerned, and in situations where your educational background will be scrutinized or reviewed as relevant/essential to a job in music, be prepared in every way to earn a Ph.D., or choose something other than music.

I know. I have a B.S. in music. I have struggled mightilly in the corporate world. I can't get a job in the formalized music world (ie, institutions), and the degree has no cachet or value to almost nobody but me and my own musical development. And I also have close friends who have either/and/or Masters and Ph.D.s in music. I've seen ALL sides of this.

[Thunderthumbs73]

PS. even people with Ph.D.s in music often spend years lookings for and applying to jobs they are surely qualified for beyond question, before they land the job.

Truth is, how many openings to teach Renaissance music are available at any given moment, and how many people who are impeccably qualified are applying for that one job? And how often would that one job come up?

I often joke that in order to teach (for example) French Horn at the collegiate level, you'd actually have to kill the person who currently has that job or wait for them to retire. Baring those two things, nobody who has that job would give it up, willingly. It's why you often have collegiate professors who at the end of their careers have these long service records in one institution. It's so f-ing hard to get a job somewhere else that is even a lateral move, to say nothing of one which is a step up in some way, takes years if it happens at all.

Too many well or appropriately qualified musicians wanting jobs. Not enough job openings or movement within or through institutions.

[GoesThump]

Originally Posted by Thunderthumbs73

This is why I say, when considering doing anything in music as far as increasing your own educational standing is concerned, and in situations where your educational background will be scrutinized or reviewed as relevant/essential to a job in music, be prepared in every way to earn a Ph.D., or choose something other than music.

I teach college. Thunderthumbs73 is basically right. You would be better off improving yourself & teaching privately than going this route, which is basically closed to you w/o a higher level degree.

I do hiring at my college - it would astonish you how many applications we get for an opening. You should also be aware that some non-tenure jobs are posted without there really being an opening. (i.e. union rules require them to be posted, but if the incumbent wants it, it is theirs by default.)

If your serious about security & opportunity, study something else that will open different doors to you.

While I'm grateful for the gig I have, if knew then what I know now, I would've chosen a different path. There's a lot less security here than people seem to think.

Good luck with things - I hope it works out for you!

GT

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by GoesThump

if knew then what I know now, I would've chosen a different path.

In terms of education and path of study at school and how this relates to, or has influenced my life, this expression (verbatim) is probably the one thing that comes to my mind over, over, and over again. No single decision, aside from the decision to marry my wife has been more significant, so far, than to get a music degree. Well said, and succinctly put, GT.

[Rockman]

Originally Posted by Thunderthumbs73

Considering the above, the certificate will move the needle almost 0%. Even people with Masters in Music from an accredited, state-supported school have a difficult time finding work as a music teacher. A certificate will look better than nothing, but also will not effectively make you any more employable or attractive as a candidate for the job. Why? The bar for most music jobs (aside from running your own studio or going into business for yourself) is much, much higher.

To teach at college, you will need at least the Ph.D. in exactly the opening available to avoid having your resume sent to the trash bin without a second glance/thought- ie- you must have the Ph.D. expressedly in Renaissance music, if that is what the opening is, and not in Percussion. The second thing is you must know the right people. Forty people with Ph.D.s in Renaissance music who are impeccably qualified will see, and apply for that (hypothetical) job above. All the "on paper" qualifications are essential, but you need to stand out, and the essential way (but not only way) to do that is through a personal connection. Someone who knows someone, who is well-respected and whos own credentials are beyond reproach, and will personally vouch and go to bat for you. Even then, that doesn't guarantee you the job. But trust me, if you don't know someone who knows someone, regarding the job you're looking into, rest assured there is someone in the applicant pool who certainly does.

This is why I say, when considering doing anything in music as far as increasing your own educational standing is concerned, and in situations where your educational background will be scrutinized or reviewed as relevant/essential to a job in music, be prepared in every way to earn a Ph.D., or choose something other than music.

I know. I have a B.S. in music. I have struggled mightilly in the corporate world. I can't get a job in the formalized music world (ie, institutions), and the degree has no cachet or value to almost nobody but me and my own musical development. And I also have close friends who have either/and/or Masters and Ph.D.s in music. I've seen ALL sides of this.

There is an alternate route. Become one of the greats and then the Universities might ask you to teach for them. But you'd have to tour extensively and be well know for that to happen.

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by Rockman

There is an alternate route. Become one of the greats and then the Universities might ask you to teach for them. But you'd have to tour extensively and be well know for that to happen.

Keyword: might. But yes, you are correct, but that achievement is even rarer than landing the job via Ph.D.+ method. If you're a rock musician, at this current time, that is almost a no-go for the alternate route. No school (aside from Berkleys, MITs, etc...) have rock programs. Many schools, even state-supported ones have decent, if sometimes underdeveloped jazz programs, and if you are a jazz player of great repute, can fit into the program of the school personally/professionally, have a demonstrable ability to teach and can develop solid curriculm (all that is still essential, no matter who you have played with or what you have done) then you might be able to get in.

Basically, even the skill as a player will only get you so far. You have to fit culturally/professionally and be able to mesh with the other 50-70% of the tasks/workload in which you are not playing your instrument.

[Bongolation]

I think that people need to realize that a piece of paper is rarely going to give them a career, especially nowadays, short of a license to practice medicine or dentistry.

In general, I see people on forums in all sorts of fields being utterly gobsmacked when the world ignores them after getting their degrees and certifications in whatever -- which they thought would be accompanied by the skies opening up and showering money and praise on them. That's such a hopelessly square outlook.

Life's just not like that except for a few unexpected gold-rush moments in some fields, which are only temporary.

And this particular certificate seems especially negligible relative to the expense and time involved.

[jmattbassplaya]

Food for thought, my music teacher in high school had a degree in English and yet he`s been the schools band director for nearly 30 years. His musical experience was drumline in high school...

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

I think that people need to realize that a piece of paper is rarely going to give them a career, especially nowadays, short of a license to practice medicine or dentistry.

You are correct. But it is 1/2 the equation. The other 1/2 is a responsible administration and faculty that educates students not merely on how to get through a program they are teaching, but realistic outlook and finger on the pulse of job opportunities in that particular specialty once that student has left those halls. I was given the "you can do anything you want to do" advice more than once and from more than one academic advisor, which is of course, mostly true in the technical sense, but does not necessarily line-up or reconcile with life in the real world.

Ultimately a student has to be informed and make the right choices, but good faculty advice and guidance really can make a huge difference.

[Thunderthumbs73]

Originally Posted by jmattbassplaya

Food for thought, my music teacher in high school had a degree in English and yet he`s been the schools band director for nearly 30 years. His musical experience was drumline in high school...

The bar for what was educationally/academically acceptable 30 years ago versus now had changed dramatically.

At that time (30 years ago), a college degree combined with availability and interest in teaching music in a place which might not have necessarily drawn a large pool of candidates with music degrees to teach band, might have given this individual a foot in the door and an opportunity to teach music at a high school level even though they did not have a music degree. I would offer that but for rare circumstance, those days are over.

[jmac]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

I think that people need to realize that a piece of paper is rarely going to give them a career, especially nowadays, short of a license to practice medicine or dentistry.

I disagree with this statement. Since graduating college 15 years ago I've worked for four companies. None of them hire people without a degree of some type. Even the admins are required to have at least an associates degree; often looking for Bachelors.

My wife's company is the same. While she's isn't working in the field in which she has a degree, she would never have been hired without a degree.

[jmac]

Originally Posted by bearclaw

I was just wondering if any of you guys or gals could shed a little lite and insight regarding online musical certificates? I have been checking out Berklee's(Boston) online certificate course curriculum and was debating whether or not it would be worth trying out? I know I would never be able to take on undergrad classes logistically speaking, because I live in NYC.

So, if anyone has some useful advice I would appreciate it tremendously. Thanks gang.

Originally Posted by bearclaw

Thank you for taking the time in giving me some feed back everyone. I am very interested in teaching bass at the collegiate or private school level actually, but do not have a music degree. This is why I asked if a certificate would look better than nothing?

So far none of the replies stated that they have any experience with the Berkley Cert program. So they do not know from experience whether there is a benefit with the program.

If I were you I would search out people who are doing the job that you want to do and ask advice from them as to what experience and/or training would be beneficial to obtaining that type of job.