Music Pro -- But Not a Music Fan

[Bongolation]

I've been debating posting this for months as it's sure to upset a few people, but as the years pass I become more and more interested in coming to an acceptable answer to a question that's been nagging at me for decades:

Why are so few high-achieving, full-time, long-career music industry professionals music fans?

When I was enjoying my fifteen minutes as a big noise in the music industry in NYC years ago, I noticed that the composers, producers, arrangers, broadcast and record company execs, high-end studio talent, etc. rarely evinced any personal love of, or interest in, music. They never tended to listen to a note of music unless there was a compelling professional reason to. Music was usually (and sometimes almost religiously) absent in their homes and in their free time.

It was a realization that took a while to sink in. No one ever seemed to notice it or talk about it, but it was pervasive. I was, am and always have been the same way. I can't listen to music without locking into a hard analytic mode, rating the production, composition, engineering, vocal phrasing, progression resolution, adherence to band branding etc., etc, etc., etc., etc.

Etc., etc., etc.

Etc., etc., etc.

I've never enjoyed performers so much as I've studied them.

I've never rocked out to music, but been fascinated by its qualities as product.

It seemed to be the same way with all these people. Music came on, they froze in rapt, silent attention. They couldn't carry on a conversation with music in the background, because they were distracted by the bad EQing of the keyboard or the awkward vocal phrasing or the ethereally beautiful resolution of the progression into the break.

I guess that real music is work, and no ditchdigger wants to dig holes on his own time.

Thoughts?

[Jazzdogg]

Thankfully, I have met very few people of the kind you describe; the vast majority of the people with whom I have worked have been passionate about music.

That said, I worked in the hotel industry for thirty years, and my interest in hotels waned a little more with each passing year. Hotels had come to represent competency, industry, and friendships - but I couldn't wait to retire!

One of the reasons you saw so many shop-worn industry insiders may have been because music has taken a back seat to performance-based commerce for far too long - no one loves her because they're too busy pimping her out for a profit - a situation that appears to be getting worse every year.

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

One of the reasons you saw so many shop-worn industry insiders...

Oh, let me be clear: These were people at the tops of their professions, total masters at what they did -- not burnt-out hacks and failures.

That's a different demographic!

These guys got the job done with no wasted motion.

[two fingers]

I don't rank where they do so I can't answer your question directly. I can only say that it happens out in semi-pro land too. A LOT of my musician friend love nothing more than to pick to death any music they hear. And thank God, I'm not that way. I love almost ALL music! I play jazz, but can enjoy a Jimmy Buffet concert. I play rock, but love nothing more than to listen to Motown through headphones. Etc....etc.... So again, I can't answer for them, but I'm glad I'm NOT them. Sounds are WONDERFUL! Creative souns are even BETTER! Cheers.

[warnergt]

Maybe they just prefer a different genre. It's hard to imagine someone
who is not a music fan of some sort.

If I were a big-time music producer working in a musical category that
I didn't particularly care for (a couple come to mind), I might not appear
so passionate about it but I would want to work out the details to make
it as successful as possible.

Perhaps, they go home and crank up the classical music.

[JimmyM]

All it is is just a bunch of stuffed shirts using jargon they learned at their business school to make the rest of us think that they're smarter about picking hit records than anyone else out there. The truth is they know nothing that anyone else out there doesn't know. They listen to music and say, "Hey, I like this song," or "Hey, I don't like this song," then they stay up all night thinking up buzzwords to describe to their friends and co-workers so they can pretend they know more about music than anyone else. It's a very subtle variation on the long-spoken adage, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with BS."

Whatever. I'm just glad I lived to see the whole system come crashing down. Too late for me, but you kids out there actually have half a chance now.

[willgroove2]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

I've been debating posting this for months as it's sure to upset a few people, but as the years pass I become more and more interested in coming to an acceptable answer to a question that's been nagging at me for decades:

Why are so few high-achieving, full-time, long-career music industry professionals music fans?

When I was enjoying my fifteen minutes as a big noise in the music industry in NYC years ago, I noticed that the composers, producers, arrangers, broadcast and record company execs, high-end studio talent, etc. rarely evinced any personal love of, or interest in, music. They never tended to listen to a note of music unless there was a compelling professional reason to. Music was usually (and sometimes almost religiously) absent in their homes and in their free time.

It was a realization that took a while to sink in. No one ever seemed to notice it or talk about it, but it was pervasive. I was, am and always have been the same way. I can't listen to music without locking into a hard analytic mode, rating the production, composition, engineering, vocal phrasing, progression resolution, adherence to band branding etc., etc, etc., etc., etc.

Etc., etc., etc.

Etc., etc., etc.

I've never enjoyed performers so much as I've studied them.

I've never rocked out to music, but been fascinated by its qualities as product.

It seemed to be the same way with all these people. Music came on, they froze in rapt, silent attention. They couldn't carry on a conversation with music in the background, because they were distracted by the bad EQing of the keyboard or the awkward vocal phrasing or the ethereally beautiful resolution of the progression into the break.

I guess that real music is work, and no ditchdigger wants to dig holes on his own time.

Thoughts?

I know just what you mean and one of the pieces of advice I give younger musicians is to maintain some sort of connection to music you are passionate about even if you find your self in situations that don't have anything to do with it. I find myself having conversations with people who are simply fans of music with no technical knowledge and literally wondering how they can't hear all the autotune and pitch correction as they sing along. When you are involved in the constant production of professional music, either in a production capacity or as a performer,you start to develop methods to enable yourself the ability to reproduce quality on a regular basis. One of these methods is detachment,being detached from the emotional content of music can make it easier to be more analytical about it. I once asked a mastering engineer how he felt about some of the music he worked on and he said that he didn't really focus on the content of a song as much as he did the components that went into putting it together.

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by willgroove2

One of these methods is detachment,being detached from the emotional content of music can make it easier to be more analytical about it. I once asked a mastering engineer how he felt about some of the music he worked on and he said that he didn't really focus on the content of a song as much as he did the components that went into putting it together.

Well, that was of course his job.

Detachment is absolutely essential for a music pro, in my book, except possibly for the actual live performer while he or she is on stage.

Most of the really breathtaking music disaster$ I've seen up close had to do with people losing their objectivity and clarity about stuff that should have been professionally obvious had they been in their right minds.

Fans, on the other hand, can go totally nuts if they want to. That's their job!

[JimmyM]

Detachment, not so much, but objectivity is always a good thing. Detachment conjures images of not caring, IMHO. Objectivity shows you care but don't care to a detrimental level.

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Detachment, not so much, but objectivity is always a good thing. Detachment conjures images of not caring, IMHO. Objectivity shows you care but don't care to a detrimental level.

Well, those are pretty arbitrary definitions, as you know.

Detachment in practical terms means that you know where you and your interests begin and end, and don't seriously mistake those limits. That's a good survival plan for anyone -- anywhere, anytime.

That's antithetical to being a fan of a performer, which in many respects consists of falsely identifying with the object of your affections -- sometimes to a bizarre, life-threatening degree.

That's an extremely complex and fraught subject for another thread, maybe. Professionals who became fanish about stuff in the business were essentially (and rightly) regarded by their peers and superiors as somewhat ill and to be disregarded until they returned to their senses. This doesn't apply to the entire classes of full-time industry sycophants and toadies who merely act like fans. They of course don't really care.

Objectivity is more like being able to separate what's real from what you wish was real.

Detachment and objectivity are matters of intellectual discipline more than anything else.

[JimmyM]

Well, when you put the word "detachment" like that, it's hard to argue with it, but I just find it very strange to distance one's self so emotionally from something designed to evoke emotions. Then again, they're there and I'm not, so there you go. Of course, when the whole music business is in a shambles, it kind of takes the edge off of not being there, and it makes one wonder if their approach was the best route.

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

I just find it very strange to distance one's self so emotionally from something designed to evoke emotions. Then again, they're there and I'm not, so there you go. Of course, when the whole music business is in a shambles, it kind of takes the edge off of not being there, and it makes one wonder if their approach was the best route.

The business is in shambles mainly for devastating technological reasons, which have had a domino effect on everything else.

That's cool -- artists must embrace change...

But if you want to get a really interesting insight on objective, detached professionalism in the music business and what it can do, you should read in Gerald Posner's book on Motown about the process of Monday morning quality control meetings.

Arguably, this system methodically produced the greatest run of artistic and commercial success in the history of pop music.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

The business is in shambles mainly for devastating technological reasons, which have had a domino effect on everything else.

Sorry bro, I know that's what the music business weasels would like us to believe, but it's not true. There are still acts that don't have a problem selling their singles, and acts like AC/DC who just put out the best album they've done in 20 years don't have a problem selling them. What happened was the business got single oriented, albums would have one or two good songs and the rest crap, and too many acts got promoted based solely on how deep their pockets are and not how talented they are. Yes, the technology did change and the record companies tried to fight it instead of rolling with it, but I think that the real reason is because music on the whole sucks these days.

BTW, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your original proposition. I just feel like there's a way to do it and still keep some of the passion that made you want to get involved in music making in the first place.

[Knifedge]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Sorry bro, I know that's what the music business weasels would like us to believe, but it's not true. There are still acts that don't have a problem selling their singles, and acts like AC/DC who just put out the best album they've done in 20 years don't have a problem selling them. What happened was the business got single oriented, albums would have one or two good songs and the rest crap, and too many acts got promoted based solely on how deep their pockets are and not how talented they are. Yes, the technology did change and the record companies tried to fight it instead of rolling with it, but I think that the real reason is because music on the whole sucks these days.

BTW, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your original proposition. I just feel like there's a way to do it and still keep some of the passion that made you want to get involved in music making in the first place.

+10000

I see the music industry as one big bank. It's been a long time since the actual music industry cared and had passion about music. It's been about profit for a lot of years. Find a doll or a stud, write music they can lip sync to, and send them to the hounds once their fame is done. Problem is that the internet has changed that. One hit song on a CD can now be downloaded without listening to the rest of the filler crap. Record companies blame the internet... not so. They could have taken advantage of it from the start. Instead, they continued to charge $30 per CD for CD's that are not even worth it. If anything, the record companies have doomed themselves. Greed usually goes hand in hand with shortsightedness, and it is now catching up. CD sales are dismal.

The positive thing is the surge of amazing indie and grassroot bands now poking their head through the clouds. They embraced and used the internet to it's max, without the help from record companies, and are becoming stronger. Now record companies are playing catch up, and are trying to pay attention to what the masses really want.

Like ol' JimmyM, ol' Knifedge has done the runaround in the music biz for a while a good while back. It's gross. Creativity is frowned upon. Once you are recognized, they want you to veer away from your own creative juices, and adapt to theirs. Imagine a 5 piece heavy progressive rock band fighting a producer who wants us to sound like Nickleback, etc. We didn't budge.

Would we have made it big had we listened? Maybe.... at least we can look back and say we did everything on our own, made some decently successful strides without seceding our artistic merit. Had we gone the other way and listened, I wouldn't have been proud of that at all.

So, yes.. most so called music pros are not that at all.. most are experts in business and marketing who happen to know the terms of our shops. There are surprisingly few of them who are actual, passionate musicians. I honestly hope the music industry falls a hard death, and the indie bands start really shaping the music horizon. That may sound harsh, but I would rather see people exercise their artistic strengths rather than assimilate already successful "bands".

[rcarraher]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

I've been debating posting this for months as it's sure to upset a few people, but as the years pass I become more and more interested in coming to an acceptable answer to a question that's been nagging at me for decades:

Why are so few high-achieving, full-time, long-career music industry professionals music fans?

When I was enjoying my fifteen minutes as a big noise in the music industry in NYC years ago, I noticed that the composers, producers, arrangers, broadcast and record company execs, high-end studio talent, etc. rarely evinced any personal love of, or interest in, music. They never tended to listen to a note of music unless there was a compelling professional reason to. Music was usually (and sometimes almost religiously) absent in their homes and in their free time.

It was a realization that took a while to sink in. No one ever seemed to notice it or talk about it, but it was pervasive. I was, am and always have been the same way. I can't listen to music without locking into a hard analytic mode, rating the production, composition, engineering, vocal phrasing, progression resolution, adherence to band branding etc., etc, etc., etc., etc.

Etc., etc., etc.

Etc., etc., etc.

I've never enjoyed performers so much as I've studied them.

I've never rocked out to music, but been fascinated by its qualities as product.

It seemed to be the same way with all these people. Music came on, they froze in rapt, silent attention. They couldn't carry on a conversation with music in the background, because they were distracted by the bad EQing of the keyboard or the awkward vocal phrasing or the ethereally beautiful resolution of the progression into the break.

I guess that real music is work, and no ditchdigger wants to dig holes on his own time.

Thoughts?

I am first and foremost a music fan. I remember being like 5 years old and absolutely fascinated by the Organ in Ray Charles "Chitlins and Candied Yams". At first and for a good portion of my "formative" years I was most likely fascinated by the entertainment value, the hook, the beat but somewhere in my teens I started analizing what music was. I discovered the mathamatics behind music and I was hooked for good. (I'm an electronics engineer by education, so the math was my tonic). I started danalysising what it was that made the songs, music I liked "sound" that way. Defining the music I "liked" or that hooked me.

40 some years later, I still do that. I'll hear something that on an entertainment level, something with a good hook or a catchy tune will catch my ear, and I have to find the "science" behind the art. But I still listen foremost with a fans ear, then I pick it apart as a musician. I even get fascinated by things that aren't necessarily "good" musically. The Groupies "Primitive" being a prime example (Nuggets Box Set) does it even have two chords? But I am/was fascinated b bands like Traffic, Cream, The Beatles, Pink Floyd etc...bands that had some intricacies to there music. I also became a jazz fan somewhere along the way, and talk about alot to analyize!

So, I guess I am both. A fan, and a musician. Of course, I have never had to count on music to feed me, although it has. But I guess I never got caught up very much in the business of music.

[Pacman]

I've made my living the past 23 years as a professional musician. I love music more now than ever, and practice harder now than I ever have. I've played with some of the best musicians in the world, and all of them were pursuing their craft just as hard, or harder.

[Petebass]

Actually i think you might be overcomplicating it. No-one is surprised when people who wash cars for a living don't feel like washing more cars in their free time. People can love motorcycles but no-one expects them to enjoy it if they're riding their bikes 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

If you do enough gigs, the same thing starts to happen and you don't particularly feel like playing your instrument when you get some spare time. Take that one step further and some musicians would rather watch TV or do something other than listen to music when they're not at work. That doesn't mean you hate music. It just means you love it more when life is in balance.