music school snootiness....... I dont understand

[KingCrimson]

I am currently on my second year of music studies, i've improved a lot but there is still A LOT to work on. One of the things i've noticed is the attitude change of students.

I'm sorry i don't mind if you love jazz and don't listen to other music styles but why is it that SOOOO many people that come into our school start changing into snooty jazz snobs. The arrogance is suffocating, i'm not the quickest person on the planet so i am not as good a good portion of the players here but i work my @$$ off, and i still hear the snickers and sense the two faced attitude that some players seemed to adopt.

I mean I still LOVE Led Zeppelin, Cream, Megadeth etc.... but ive also grown to fall in love with Chick Corea & return to Forever, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Freddie Hubbard and other musicians that i would have not given the time of day before.

Is it that people just mature out of rock and metal music once they are more educated? Or is it the environment of the jazz world. I heard some kids talk about how they outgrew Iron Maiden and Aerosmith.

I mean i understand that John Coltranes musical depth exceeds metallica's by far but sometimes i like to listen to some heavy ass stuff.

It also makes the school experience a lot less enjoyable for a lot of us here, nobody wants to be snubbed for liking some rock music.

[Will Kelly]

Well, just remember, as a bass player you'll play way more gigs if you can do it all. Let the snoots stay home.

I went to Berklee. There was some of that attitude there, but it wasnt that bad.

[totallyfrozen]

You know, I've never attended conservatory or a special school, but I've gone to private schools and the university, etc.
One thing I've learned (and I REALLY believe it doesn't matter what your school or program of study is) is that snooty arrogance in school is petty and stupid. It's SCHOOL for crying out loud! NOBODY there has "arrived" yet and only time will tell which ones will even be doing anything worth a crap 10 years from now. Students in nursing schools get snooty about how much "smarter" they are than other lesser medical people (CNAs, EMTs, etc.)--but they aren't doctors...in fact, they aren't even nurses yet.
Some people in medical school get snooty about it--but they aren't doctors yet--and some of them may NEVER be.

These people in your school are just students. They haven't achieved a name for themselves or any gold records or grammy awards, etc. There's nothing to be snooty about. It's just stupid.
Accomplish something and be a "somebody", then start worrying about whether to be snooty or not. Just ignore the snootiness. Remind yourself that these guys are NOTHING yet. You might need to remind some of them of that fact from time to time too.

[fenderhutz]

From what I have seen from our local college crowd (I went to that college as well) is because jazz has improv elements and can be played by a such diverse group it was very popular in the learning arena. None of the kids carrying around guitars played jazz on campus, they were doing folky rock and Dylan trying to change the world.

Also jazz is a medium that can incorporate everything from guitars, horns, woodwinds, pianos, voice, and on and on. It gives people a level playing field where you can walk into a room and jam with people and everyone gets a chance to "wank" for the sake of a jam.

As far as attitudes go, meh, tons college age kids think they have to prove something. Jazz just gives them an elitist element to cling to. Same as the people carrying around Nietzsche books calling Stephen King a non author.

Just my .02

[pacojas]

its okay if they get snooty. those bands you like get P.A.I.D!!! Trujillo got a mil just because when he joined Met.., yadda-ra-da-mean?!!!

[Matthijs]

Seems to me that jazz-focused-snootiness is just a phase a lot of music students go through. Several of the seasoned music/jazz musicians I know have made made a transition from hardcore-as-complicated-as-possible-jazz to world music and other more traditional genres where performing music isn't first about showing off your skills. For a lot of music student's the snootiness comes from the need to show the world they've mastered something really complicated. They probably also had to work really hard to get there. Your approach is probably a bit more mature though.

[MikeBC]

Jazz is a great genre but so are most others. Some of the great rock bassists, such as Jack Bruce of Cream, came out of a classical and jazz background.

Another thing to consider is that students often adapt the attitude of their teachers. Sometimes it is a survival mechanism. Academia can be vicious and cut-throat.

[namraj]

"musical depth" is almost subjective, so Jazz musicians use more complex chord progressions and scales and tend to be virtuosos on their instruments. But how is writing a simple chord sequence and melody that everyone enjoys and sells well unmusical, it's just musical in a different way. Technical isn't musical, technical is just technical.

P.S. I'm mostly a jazz and fusion player.

[hrodbert696]

My experience is that snootiness is always the product of insecurity. Right now they have a chip on their shoulder about how they've grown out of metal or whatever. Later in life some of them will grow out of the snootiness... they'll realize that DISliking something doesn't make you a superior person after all. Others, of course, will remain insecure for life. Don't let them bother you.

[One Bad Monkey]

It happens. Some of it could just be an age thing (many of those snooty kids I've run into were still under 20), at which point you hope they'll grow out of it. I wouldn't worry about it yourself; when you're getting gigs in town because you're easy to deal with and the snooty kids aren't, maybe they'll catch on.

[pklima]

Usually I just smile, shrug and say "Hmm, I have nothing against playing music normal people like". You'll need to get along with your fellow students and work with them in ensembles, though, so don't annoy them too much, as fun as it might be.

[jacojbass]

this is not a surprise to me, Just do your thing.......

[worxforme]

Insecurity.

The more confident and secure people are, the less they judge others to define themselves. Also, when you're more secure you don't make decisions or feel emotions based on the good opinion of others.

Be a duck, let it roll off your back like rain, paddle like hell underneath and be calm and smooth on the surface.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by Matthijs

Seems to me that jazz-focused-snootiness is just a phase a lot of music students go through. Several of the seasoned music/jazz musicians I know have made made a transition from hardcore-as-complicated-as-possible-jazz to world music and other more traditional genres where performing music isn't first about showing off your skills.

Yeah, in my experience you could probably draw a standard bell curve, where the horizontal axis is Time -- i.e., the chronological development/evolution of a musician's maturity -- and the vertical axis is both Musical Complexity and Attitudinal Snootiness.

iow, nearly every musician (especially those involved in musical pedagogy) goes through a period as they develop & learn where they gravitate towards more complex musics becuase it challenges them and allows them to see that there are artists whose vision exceeds their own. Along with this interest comes a certain degree of elitism. It's just human nature. But eventually, as the musician matures, they tend to settle in to a balance between complexity (and/or snootiness) and slightly less erudite, more appealing musics...simply because as one gets older one tends to value human interaction more than...well, more than nearly anything else imho.

Originally Posted by namraj

"musical depth" is almost subjective...

operative word being "almost"

Originally Posted by namraj

...so Jazz musicians use more complex chord progressions and scales and tend to be virtuosos on their instruments. But how is writing a simple chord sequence and melody that everyone enjoys and sells well unmusical, it's just musical in a different way. Technical isn't musical, technical is just technical.

Right, but "depth" is neither just "musical" nor just "technical". "Depth" is musical application of technique.

[baalroo]

I think there is a certain "switch" that gets thrown for some people (I know it did for me), where as you learn and progress and start to understand music and musicianship more it can become harder and harder to enjoy "normal" music. It has to do with the point where you begin to focus as much, or more, on the creation process of a piece as you do on the piece itself. Once your understanding of an art form reaches a certain point, it can be difficult to listen to a piece without contextualizing it within the framework of what you can glean about the creation process of said piece... and for some, that contextualization becomes the most entertaining part of the experience. It's no "better" or "worse" than listening to a song for the sake of the song itself, but most young people are snobby about WHATEVER it happens to be that they are into. If you were in a class with sculptors you would have to hear snobby sculpting talk... if you were a math major you would have to hear snobby math talk... on and on.

See, I know I personally "grew out of" most "normal music" and have a really hard time not gritting my teeth at most stuff, but it's not because I'm better than the people that like those things... it's just because my own interests and studies have led me to a different understand of music than the average listener.

I can understand that a film scholar will have a different opinion of a film than I, and that their opinion is actually the deeper and more informed one. I'm willing to concede that a film scholars opinions are based more heavily in an understanding of that particular artform than my own. It would be snobbish and childlike for me to say to a film scholar "Your criticism is not more valid than mine simply because you are more informed than I" That's just nonsense, but so many people make this argument about music. So, I would understand if I said "I love this movie" and a film scholar responded with "I think it's crap." It's not his fault that he thinks it was crap, and it's not snobbish for him to say so... if I take offense then that is ON ME, not him.

I know so far this isn't entirely coherent, I'm sort of trying to sort through what I wanna say on the matter as I type. So, I'm going to stop here for now and allow this much to be picked apart and return to elaborate on these points then.

[Bloodhammer]

Don't EVER "outgrow" rock and metal. If you move on, then move on, but DON'T EVER EVER attribute that to maturity.

[baalroo]

Originally Posted by Bloodhammer

Don't EVER "outgrow" rock and metal. If you move on, then move on, but DON'T EVER EVER attribute that to maturity.

nah, I disagree. The concept of a persons musical interests growing in a direction counter to those highlighted in a particular genre is a valid one IMO.

[Muzoid]

You think the musicians are bad?....I went to a school of arts.

The competition with the female dance majors was insane.

(but 98% were hotties...so who cares right?)

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by Hoover

iow, nearly every musician (especially those involved in musical pedagogy) goes through a period as they develop & learn where they gravitate towards more complex musics becuase it challenges them and allows them to see that there are artists whose vision exceeds their own. Along with this interest comes a certain degree of elitism. It's just human nature. But eventually, as the musician matures, they tend to settle in to a balance between complexity (and/or snootiness) and slightly less erudite, more appealing musics...simply because as one gets older one tends to value human interaction more than...well, more than nearly anything else imho.

Great post.

Not sure what the answer is, but the phenomenon is very real. I occasionally encounter instances of this sort of musical snobbery amongst some younger players who are still studying full time and mistakenly believe they are close to being "the finished article". The disdain for styles and genres away from anything that makes them feel clever is definitely a sign of musical and social/emotional immaturity. I know this, because at one time it applied to me. Long time ago now.

[pklima]

Originally Posted by Muzoid

You think the musicians are bad?....I went to a school of arts.

Ha. Artists.

But what else can you do when you study arts and know you're never gonna make real money? You need to derive your status in society and your self-worth from something other than money - and a feeling of moral and intellectual superiority is a popular substitute.