To be - or not to be - an artist

[MysticMichael]

Just an observation - and perhaps a bit of a rant - about a phenomenon I've noticed here on Talk Bass: Namely a pervasive sense of discomfort and self-consciousness that some seem to have about regarding themselves as artists.

Now, I understand that very many players here are so-called "weekend warriors" who play strictly cover material. And in this case, the term "artist" - strictly speaking - may be a stretch. I can certainly appreciate the good sense of a player who does not wish to become egocentric or to come across as pretentious.

Nevertheless, there are some who take this sense of humility too far - particularly those who are in fact composing & performing original material, and/or those who are otherwise attempting to break new musical ground in some way.

Just for the record: Folks, there is nothing wrong in being - or attempting to become - an artist. In fact, it is a rare and noble pursuit. There are those of us whose natural tendency is to think lofty thoughts and/or to feel deep feelings. And if one is so gifted as to be able to give musical voice to these thoughts & feelings - to any extent - then that person is by (one) definition an artist.

If this scenario just happens to describe you and your endeavors, then it's time to stop feeling foolish and inhibited - no matter what others may think. Embrace your inner artist - and become the person you were meant to become.

[/rant]

MM

[barebones]

Look, man, do you want to paint or do you want to play bass?

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by barebones

Look, man, do you want to paint or do you want to play bass?

LOL!

MM

[Phalex]

Meh. I'm just in it for the chicks. Kinda like Picasso.

[Burlington]

I'm a freakin' artist, man.

[dalkowski]

I'm a commercial artist.

[WardEarth]

Everybody's an artist, they just don't know it yet.

[plangentmusic]

Interesting post. Here's my take.

First of all, I have more respect for someone who is a talented craftsman than a lousy artist. But the most talented are those who bring an element of both into whatever they do.

Having said that, I've been both. I've played commercial gigs my whole life but have always been involved in original projects. I've also recorded albums and have been a writer and arranger and THAT is ultimately more rewarding. However...it gets discouraging if the art isn't heard. And since the music business is also the entertainment business your "art" must be commercially viable. And these days, unless you're under 30, it's nearly impossible to get any kind of major deal.

ALSO...speaking personally, I don't gig as often as I used to. The work just isn't there -- which is why I'm concentrating more on the artistic end. It's important to me and I take it seriously. But that creates a vacuum to a degree. Unless you're touring and promoting your music, it tends to be a very solitary existence. And because I'm used to performing I tend to miss the camaraderie, the interplay and the applause. And that can lead to depression.

Sorry if this sounds like a downer. It's just where I am at the moment. But things change. They always do.

[sarcastro83]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

Just for the record: Folks, there is nothing wrong in being - or attempting to become - an artist. In fact, it is a rare and noble pursuit. There are those of us whose natural tendency is to think lofty thoughts and/or to feel deep feelings. And if one is so gifted as to be able to give musical voice to these thoughts & feelings - to any extent - then that person is by (one) definition an artist.

Honestly, and with all due respect, people who self-proclaim about how artistic they are, whether it's refering to their "rare and noble pursuits" or how they "think lofty thoughts and feel deep feelings" are a dime a dozen, and rarely have the substance to back up their claims, at least in my opinion and experience. Not to say that it's wrong to think well of one's self... that's perfectly fine. Hell, that's perfectly healthy. It's just a shame that 99% of the people I've met who describe themselves in much the same way you've mentioned aren't COMPLETE AND TOTAL HUMOURLESS DICKS ABOUT WHO THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY DO. It's extremely easy to call yourself an artist, but it seems to be extremely difficult not to be pretentious and douchey at the same time.

PLEASE do not assume that this is in any way, shape or form an attack on you or your character. I'm sure that at the core, you're a marvellous dude. I guess what I am trying to get at is that I think people who tend to be creative should be modest when it counts... after all, confidence and modesty are not the same thing...

Either way... rabble rabble rabble...

[zachoff]

Originally Posted by plangentmusic

Interesting post. Here's my take.

First of all, I have more respect for someone who is a talented craftsman than a lousy artist.

That's just it... Art is subjective. One man's trash is another man's treasure.

[BananaKing]

Originally Posted by sarcastro83

Honestly, and with all due respect, people who self-proclaim about how artistic they are, whether it's refering to their "rare and noble pursuits" or how they "think lofty thoughts and feel deep feelings" are a dime a dozen, and rarely have the substance to back up their claims, at least in my opinion and experience. Not to say that it's wrong to think well of one's self... that's perfectly fine. Hell, that's perfectly healthy. It's just a shame that 99% of the people I've met who describe themselves in much the same way you've mentioned aren't COMPLETE AND TOTAL HUMOURLESS DICKS ABOUT WHO THEY ARE AND WHAT THEY DO. It's extremely easy to call yourself an artist, but it seems to be extremely difficult not to be pretentious and douchey at the same time.

PLEASE do not assume that this is in any way, shape or form an attack on you or your character. I'm sure that at the core, you're a marvellous dude. I guess what I am trying to get at is that I think people who tend to be creative should be modest when it counts... after all, confidence and modesty are not the same thing...

Either way... rabble rabble rabble...

+1000. This is exactly what I was thinking.

I do think of myself as an artist, but I don't tell people I'm an artist when I first meet them; I tell them I'm a Musician.

Why? Because, when I talk to most people, we start talking about other things first. A lot of my interests revolve around philosophy, visual art, psychology, spirituality, literature, cooking, an so on.....

Most of the people who then say that they are an artist do so to make themselves look deeper than they are. Since I legitimately love those things, calling myself an artist makes me look less like someone who is legitimately an artist and more like someone who is trying too hard to look "Artsy".

Most people who know me well, though, would say that I was an artist. When I have some level of achievement in music, I might actually just go to calling myself an artist. However, for the time being, I stick to musician to avoid confusion.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by sarcastro83

PLEASE do not assume that this is in any way, shape or form an attack on you or your character. I'm sure that at the core, you're a marvellous dude. I guess what I am trying to get at is that I think people who tend to be creative should be modest when it counts... after all, confidence and modesty are not the same thing...

No offense taken. I do agree that attitude is no substitute for real talent - and the bottom line (as always) is whether or not you can actually produce.

But perhaps because of douchey, pretentious people who are legends chiefly in their own minds, the very concept of being an artist seems to have taken on a pejorative stigma that can be as repressive as douchebag egomania is oppressive.

MM

[zachoff]

Do you attempt to create art? If so you are an artist. Once you quit attempting to create art you are no longer an artist. If you attempt to create art and fail (whether in your own mind or the mind of others) you can choose to continue or you can choose to do something else.

For every self-proclaimed artist there's someone that wants to crush their art because they've either never bothered to take the time to try or they've failed and have resolved to quit trying.

There's also the types that have been there and done that and don't want to bother creating art anymore, but these folks are usually quite a bit more open minded than the folks that haven't tried or have quit trying.

[knumbskull]

there was a thread a while back called something like 'is music art?', and many people seemd to feel opposed the the idea.

there is definitely a lot of baggage attached to art and especially the the idea of being 'an artist' - or at least going around the place calling yourself one.

[M0ses]

I call myself a musician. IMO you can't be a musician without being an artist. Yes, I am creating art, and I'm doing it because I love to do it and it's beautiful. There's not a whole lot of need to talk about it, though.

[tangentmusic]

Mystic:
I do appreciate your thoughts here.
Being artistic or creative is different than being an artist.
Many of us write and record our own original music (myself included),
who do not consider themselves "artists". I do it for my own personal satisfaction. If someone else likes it, thats great. It's always nice to be liked for what you have done and get some love for it, but it's not the main motivation for what many of us do.
Many times we get a sound in our head that just needs to be expressed in some way, and having the opportunity to record that idea or develop it within a band setting scratches the itch.
Many people love to paint. They'll hang the finished painting on the wall and enjoy it for themselves. They dont necessarily consider themselves artists, just as someone that loves to paint.
An artist to me is someone that makes their living off their art. Many do. It does not mean that everyone loves what they do. There's always something for everyone.
I think groups like Yes, early Genesis & Rush are artistic. Many people can't stand these bands. Are they artists? I think they are. Rembrandt was an artist. Was Warhol?
Some would disagree.
I think a bit of humility goes a long way in what we think of ourselves.
Lets not get too carried away about our art, unless we are making a good living off it...

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by zachoff

Do you attempt to create art? If so you are an artist. Once you quit attempting to create art you are no longer an artist.

Succinctly stated...

Originally Posted by knumbskull

there was a thread a while back called something like 'is music art?', and many people seemd to feel opposed the the idea.

there is definitely a lot of baggage attached to art and especially the the idea of being 'an artist' - or at least going around the place calling yourself one.

I think I must have seen that thread myself. This is my point exactly - the sense of "baggage" that comes from considering oneself an artist.

I'm not so much concerned with how people identify themselves to others - except to the extent that it informs their own self-consciousness. I'm much more concerned with the ways in which the social stigma surrounding art and artistic endeavor can have a repressive, stifling influence upon the self-identity of those who don't deserve it.

After all, the ways in which we view ourselves largely determine what we can - and ultimately will - become. If one has the capacity to become a fine artist, but shies away from that path due to social stigma and peer pressure, then that is a tragedy.

MM

[hrodbert696]

There IS a lot of baggage attached to the term "artist," and I am in the camp of those who are reluctant to claim the label. Romanticism has left us with this lingering image of the artist as some sort of lonely individual, out of touch with ordinary society, following some mysterious inner muse that only he can hear, etc etc... With the paradox that such a person is simultaneously supposed to be a sort of cultural hero who changes the world and makes everybody listen to them. This expectation also gives a lot of "artists" the notion that society is somehow to blame for not being interested in whatever they happen to be doing at the moment, merely because they are doing it. So in practice, 99% of the people who take themselves seriously as such a person are pretentious jerks.

The older, original meaning of the term "art," however, is "skill," and "artists" are skilled workers in their particular medium. This is the sense you'll see the term used in Shakespeare, for instance. In order to get away from the romanticist baggage of "art," a lot of creative people have turned to the term "craft" to convey this older sense of what they're doing.

[JohNLA]

I work at Subway and that makes me a sandwhich artist
Just don't ask for more than five black olives!!!!!!!!!

[bassbully]

Are you trying to say anyone who is original and artistic is snobish and have an ego? If so I disagree. I play in an originals band with a gifted songwriter who is anything but that and is very humble about his ablities. He just enjoys songwriting and performing his material..that's all. Same for me. I enjoy songwriting and performing my songs but dont feel any better than anyone else for doing it . Its a release for me and a way to create...thats all.

I feel some people have the ability to step out and try ,some dont.Those who do have heart and it takes allot to do it. For that they should be commended and litended to .If you dont like it dont buy their music or go to a show..simple?