Is perfectionism worth the trouble?

[Faderoktopus]

This thread felt necessary, especially in light of some of the debates on such topics as wood types, instrument cables, various types of batteries for optimized pedal sound, speaker dispersion and other such lovely geeky subjects. In each of these threads there are those who say that none of these things matter, since the general public aren't golden-eared audio aficionados, and generally don't hear the bass anyway. I would agree on some points and disagree on others. I think much of our tinkering is worth it because the all-round sound of the band improves ever so slightly, and when all band members do this and the FOH engineer does his best, well, the audience might not always know the difference but they will enjoy themselves more.

I think the reason we feel that a member of the audience should be able to identify the nuances, is really because we have to be conscious about those nuances. They don't. Much of the effect that music has on people is subconscious, and it is our job to consciously try to achieve those effects by making pretty sounds (or ugly sounds, depending on the desired effect).

So, does it all matter? Do batteries matter (aside from powering whatever they should)? Do cables matter? wood types? Does that EQ pedal from Behringer do the job as well as the one from MXR?

Power cords?

Let's keep this civil, but I would like to hear how far you guys go and where you think the law of diminishing returns starts to make its presence known. A for me, I couldn't care less about batteries but am considering upgrading some of the patches between my pedals to slightly reduce the noice.

Martin

[mongo2]

Personally, I'm not looking for perfection...I never have and couldn't care less. I just look for gear that gives me tones and playability/usability I want. What I want/like is probably far from anyone's idea of perfection.

With regard to wood type, I just pick instruments that sound good to me with no prejudice regarding the types of wood that make it sound good to me.

[dvh]

All I can say is I’ve become a better player since I stopped GASSING and obsessing about gear and tonal options. I’ve put more time into learning and playing. I think that’s even more important to the audience not knowing the difference but enjoying themselves more.

[Faderoktopus]

Fair enough, I can relate to that. Perfection is obviously subjective, and it is perfectionism that I am asking about. In my mind there is a difference between looking for perfection and looking for perfection while expecting to find it.

I guess perfectionism could be trying to get that particular sound that you heard on an album long ago, and going to great lengths to achieve it. That sound might not be perfect, but the search is serious and no compromises are acceptable.

Does this make any kind of sense?

Martin

[Jinro]

I'm of the KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) type, and I myself am not an audiophile nor do I have golden ears. Most of the music that people here like I find to be "meh" and overly complicated, and most of the music I like would be blasted as being too dumb and simple.

Music is art. All art is subjective, based on the person who creates it, and based on the person who enjoys, or does not enjoy, it. Music is also a language. If the song does not communicate with the person, they most likely will not enjoy it. For example, many bassists love Jaco. Of course I think Jaco was a great bassist, but his music doesn't communicate to me, and therefore it's just not my cup of tea.

The perfectionism that you're asking about does have an influence depending on what it is. The audience probably isn't going to be able to tell the difference between the sound of a rosewood fretboard and a maple fretboard, and they probably won't care. So from the audience's perspective, it is pointless. If you prefer maple over rosewood, then by all means use it, but don't expect the audience, or even other band members, to notice or care.

Tone and effects I believe are very important. Fretless and Fretted as well. The audience won't be able to pinpoint the exact difference between tones or if you're using a fretless, but they will notice it through the feeling of the song. There are songs I like that are played with a fretless, and the sound of the fretless drives the feeling that I get from that song. If it were played with a regular bass, the song just wouldn't be the same. The audience wouldn't really be able to tell that, but they would notice that something is different. Same with effects and tone.

I guess it's kind of a yes and no.

[skychief]

Originally Posted by Faderoktopus

So, does it all matter? Do batteries matter (aside from powering whatever they should)? Do cables matter? wood types? Does that EQ pedal from Behringer do the job as well as the one from MXR?

Power cords?

A for me, I couldn't care less about batteries but am considering upgrading some of the patches between my pedals to slightly reduce the noice.

Martin

Actually no. 9 volts DC is 9 volts DC. whether it comes from a ni-cad, lithium ion, alkaline, lead-acid, or whatever, its still 9 VOLTS. the pedal doesnt care what kind of battery supplies the 9vDC.

Cables? I suppose there might be some miniscule differences between the the cheapest cables and best ones available, but I doubt many people could tell the diff. Certainly, the audience wont.

But some bass players like to fuss about their gear, and if its fun for you, Power to ya!!! J

Just please dont buy those magic power cords for $600 or $800. They truly are a scam.

[NKUSigEp]

Risk vs. Reward.

What are you spending as opposed to what are you getting paid? If I was a national touring act I would want the most reliable/durable equipment that still sounded decent. If I was a studio musician, I would want the best of the best. If I'm just an average Joe weekend warrior (like I am), I get whatever I can afford.

[Faderoktopus]

Skychief, I agree with you about those particular pieces of equiptment. That is probably where my limits go, upgrading any cables is obviously something that will only happen if I'm financially feeling bored.

Jinro, I think we feel more or less the same on this matter, but I believe that such a thing as a fretboard (nuance factor, yes, but less subtle than some other factors) is enough to change the sound of the music enough to make the effect different. Whether that difference is for better or worse is impossible to tell, that sound it is part of an artistic vision that shapes a bassists total sound, which in turn contributes to shaping the sound of the band and leaving their audience with a particular experience. Subtle, but not irrelevant.

I used two different basses on song I recorded a few weeks ago, because the quiet intro needed the warmth of that rosewood fingerboard. I might be fooling myself, but I think that difference does something to the song that isn't a complete waste of time.

Martin

[Jinro]

Actually no. 9 volts DC is 9 volts DC. whether it comes from a ni-cad, lithium ion, alkaline, lead-acid, or whatever, its still 9 VOLTS. the pedal doesnt care what kind of battery supplies the 9vDC.

What about battery life? A lot of RC and airsoft hobbyist seem to think that lithium-ion batteries are better than ni-cad/ni-mh....despite the fact that I've seen many of them randomly explode....

Jinro, I think we feel more or less the same on this matter, but I believe that such a thing as a fretboard (nuance factor, yes, but less subtle than some other factors) is enough to change the sound of the music enough to make the effect different. Whether that difference is for better or worse is impossible to tell, that sound it is part of an artistic vision that shapes a bassists total sound, which in turn contributes to shaping the sound of the band and leaving their audience with a particular experience. Subtle, but not irrelevant.

That's probably true--I haven't played a bass with a rosewood fretboard in a while so I haven't really noticed

[kraigo]

I want a bass I enjoy playing and an amp that I can hear without people complaining about my volume. I don't have to get into minutia to achieve those goals. Anything above that is for the player's sake, not the audience's, IMO. The audience won't directly notice, but if it makes the player happier, they should follow their bliss. I want as little potential for failure as possible. I want to be able to concentrate on my playing without distractions. I can get there very simply, so I don't complicate things.

This can also be construed as not putting enough effort into it. I prefer to think of it as directing my energies where they have the most pay off for me.

KO

[soulman969]

Having played both expensive basses and all the way down to a Squier CV and a Jackson I would say that it was difficult to hear any major or the subtle differences in a live situation. Maybe the fact that I was playing what should be considered a better Bass made a enough difference to me psychologically to convince me I sounded better. If I did I'm certain the audience could not tell the difference between a $2500 Modulus and a $500 Jackson.

I think what we do we do for our own benefit and satisfaction more than we do that of our listeners. I think this has been stated already but I think the listener pay far more attention to a bassist not playing than what he is or what's he's playing it on. If anything the look of the bass will gain more attention than it's sound and that's about where the arguement about exotic wood comes in. For the most part they make a bass look very unique and in some cases show beautiful craftsman ship but that exoctic wood contributes very little to the basses sound when compared to other factors.

I've also never found a high end cable to sound any better than any other quality cable and wouldn't waste my money on Monster Cables. It's easy to offer a lifetime guarantee on a cable that you charge for two to three times over upfront.

Bad players sound just as bad on $10,000 worth of gear as they do on $1000 and the reverse is true of the top players out there. I think a lot of these nuances are in our heads but I freely admit I've followed many of them from time to time seeking that small improvement in tone.

[Ayce]

Simply put:

Perfection is a fault, and I have no faults.

[BassOfSpades]

I would bet most "tone chasers" cannot tell the difference between a lot of stuff they claim make a difference. I read about a blind test where people were asked to identify between a Stradivarius and other violins, many people incorrectly labeled the Stradivarius and it was not even the most liked. I think a lot of tone chasers are under the placebo effect.

[Stumbo]

Originally Posted by Faderoktopus

...the audience might not always know the difference but they will enjoy themselves more.

IMO, this also applies to movies, television, literature, etc. I'm not talking about topics but the end result.

Look at how animation has changed over the years. Kids don't want to watch the old cartoons anymore. They want high def graphic and motion capture based shows.

Play some records from the 40's and compare to today. Most people can tell the difference. It seems we get used to higher production values w/o necessarily articulating our preferences.

Watch films from all over the world and you'll notice how production values differ and how they affect how the movie comes across to the audience.

You can call if pursuing perfection or whatever, everything changes over time and new technologies bring new creative ventures. And delving into the minutia of sound technology (or other technologies) doesn't interest some, many people spend their lives studying it and moving the process forward.

Whatever your level of participation in the process is, as long as you enjoy it, hey, more power to you. If you don't enjoy it, don't worry about it.

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by BassOfSpades

I would bet most "tone chasers" cannot tell the difference between a lot of stuff they claim make a difference. I read about a blind test where people were asked to identify between a Stradivarius and other violins, many people incorrectly labeled the Stradivarius and it was not even the most liked. I think a lot of tone chasers are under the placebo effect.

It's important to remember that just because you don't hear a difference, does not mean they can't.

[C.Linton]

Originally Posted by Pacman

It's important to remember that just because you don't hear a difference, does not mean they can't.

Conversely, just because they can hear a difference, doesn't mean it's there.

[mongo2]

Originally Posted by C.Linton

Conversely, just because they can hear a difference, doesn't mean it's there.

Then why doesn't everything sound the same?

[dvh]

Originally Posted by C.Linton

Conversely, just because they can hear a difference, doesn't mean it's there.

No, but if they believe it's there, then that's their reality.

I think that's the point of the thread. People chase after tonal perfection and if whatever component gives that to them - real or not - for them, it's real.

The thing is, a lot of people end up chasing their tails and spend far too much time obsessing about and pursuing a holy grail of tone.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Faderoktopus

So, does it all matter?
1) Do batteries matter (aside from powering whatever they should)?
2) Do cables matter?
3) wood types?
4) Does that EQ pedal from Behringer do the job as well as the one from MXR?

5) Power cords?

My thoughts....

1 - Firmly, NO.
2 - In my experience, no.
3 - Not to me!
4 - Having used Behringer pedals, yes. They work great.
5 - Absolutely, 100% NO. AC is AC.

[Spectrum]

Originally Posted by Faderoktopus

since the general public aren't golden-eared audio aficionados, and generally don't hear the bass anyway.

Before I pickupm up a bass, I was a member of the "general public" and I remember that I did notice the bass when it was played by Chris Squire and Geddy Lee and Dave Hope (Kansas). The bright tone of their basses made a huge difference in the music and in getting me to notice it.

Now take two other great rock bassists, Paul McCartney and John Paul Jones. I honestly don't think I really noticed their playing until I decided to learn to play bass and started listening specifically for these things. I didn't know what a bass was, even, it was just another guitar to me. I was clueless as to how music is made.

What is And What Should Never Be struck me as a great song, but I didn't understand why it was so good. To me Led Zeppelin's sound was all Jimmy Page. After all, every LZ poster was a picture of Page and Plant; who noticed that guy hiding in the shadows?

So bass does make a difference to the public at large as long as it's not hidden in the mix, and of course, if the bassist is the star of the band.