Playing loudness / volume for bar band.

[Rockin John]

I've had a good look through here and over in Live Sound and have decided to post, anyway, for advice.

The band is getting an increasingly bad reputation for playing too loud during performances. We play what we call Rip-It-Up boogie-blues, (kind-a rock n roll on steriods) and we mainly play in bars.

By the nature of the thing there's a certain requirement for a 'kick ass' style but the volume gets out of control and we're getting complaints from bar owners and audience alike.

Whilst we start off softer, it aint long before we're rockin' and up goes the SPL! We have minimal gear and no sound tech. We've got bass, drums, guitar, sax, my mic, 1 backing mic, mic for sax.

Our last gig was a bit of a watershed on this issue and we need to fix it V soon, or not get anymore gigs cos folk won't book us!

Please ... how should a band of this kind set up and arrange itself for the correct loudness both onstage and for the audience? What's the correct procedure? How should is be done?

Wisdom sought with all speed.

Ta.

John

[GeoffByrne]

Use low power amps.

No kidding.

[soulgaard1]

put the drummer in a cage (not kidding either)
soundabsorbing material behind him and on the sides and front. Maybe even plexiglass in front of him
And then - turn down... It will happen by itself, when the drummer puts out a lower volume.

You have to get used to playing like that though.

[lawsonman]

Keep your hands off the knobs that say "Volume" Sorted.

[D.Don]

Send the drummer to kickboxing practice during 2h before the gig.

D.Don

[ihateusernames]

complaints of 'too loud' often result from harsh, distorted (not the good kind) and imbalanced mixes. this is especially so for bands not running massive foh systems with lots of headroom. i haven't used an spl meter at a show recently but too loud to talk over is often acceptable when the mix is clear and undistorted yet pushing speakers to near death is unpleasant at any volume.

[T-Bird]

Hi.

For me, one thing jumped right up: You mic the SAX? Unless Your sax player has some sort of lung problem, the lack volume shouldn't be a concern, quite the opposite.

Other than that, a huge + for lower powered amps and a plexi-fence for the drummer, or a smaller kit, which ever is more practical.

You don't mention the use of ear plugs, but if You use them, You're playing too loud IMHO.

The way it's usually done is the least controllable party (drummer) sets the volume. In Your case the sax player can probably blow eveyone out of a small bar just by him/her self, so I'd start there.

With the band I play with, I've also noticed that the volume rises directly proportional with the alcohol level.
And I don't mean heavy drinking, a beer or a shot is a notch up, second one a notch again. Before You know it's quite loud.

Regards
Sam

[Intune]

Decibel meter.


FOH sound/light man.


Sober friend with flashlight & big stick.


Zero gigs. That will quiet ya'll down quick.

[Deacon_Blues]

My old band used to have a semi-big PA with more or less everything mic'd. We used to get complaints about the volume, and that the vocals couldn't be heard or was too muddy.

Now with my new band we use a PA consisting of a small mixer, two RCF ART 322A's active speakers (mains) and a couple of monitors. Only vocals and keys go into the PA. With this setup, we've never yet gotten any complaints about the sound, only good feedback. My 500W bass amp with 6 x 10" speakers has so far been powerful enough to get the people moving on the dancefloor. I wouldn't mind to add a sub to the rig though, to get a bit more bottom for the slightly larger venues.

The two biggest contributors to a too loud overall sound is a fully mic'd drumset and a loud mic'd guitar amp. Try to skip all that on your next gig. Maybe leave a mic on the kick drum, but leave the rest. The sound don't suffer as much from that as you do from getting a rep of being consistently too loud.

[Rockin John]

I think it's difficult to get across exactly whats going on for us. Whilst we might play places where there's a relatively roomy stage, in the main we're doing (very) small English inner city pubs. On Friday we were crammed into a space that was probably no more than 8feet wide by 10feet long. The backline, drums, mics, 4 guys, etc had to get into that space. The ceiling was too low to put the PA cabs on their stands!! Whilst the pub had more space, infront of us you might seat 30? 40? people. Small......

The guitarist acknowledges he maybe part of the problem, though, and we chatted today about it. He's keen to do his bit and feels that his Fender (something-or-other-2x12-loud-thing-combo) could perhaps be substituted for a smaller amp. He says he just cant get the tone he wants from having that amp on No.1 so driving a smaller amp harder might work. Give it a go.

The drummer feels that using special sticks might work. Give that a go, too. (He uses earplugs, btw, but the rest of us don't).

Yes, we mic the sax. He brings his own mic and stand and we mic him up. It's how we've always done it!!

Plexiglass cages, subs for the PA, drum mics ... that's another world: we've got none of that stuff. LoL. We're just a bar band with the absolute bear bones equipment drums, backline, smallish PA, 4 guys!

I agree entirely on the volume vs booze thing. The band's rockin after a couple of beers and it's a different senario that when you start that first set!!!

Yeah...

John

[stflbn]

If you're bare-bones then just learn to play softer. And that starts with practice. Practice as a comfortable level (not having to yell during a song) and play live at that same level. But mostly... set stuff up at the beginning and keep your friggen hands off the volume knobs.

[pointbass]

If you don't have a sound guy then somebody needs to get out in the house while you're playing to check the volume. If you're not using a wireless, then get one. We also work somewhat smaller places with a 4 to 6 piece band (guitar, keys, bass, drums, sax, vocalist) and I routinely walk off the stage to check the volume.

The guys in the band will bring the volume down based on what I'm hearing in the house. As long as everyone agrees to listen to the "sound-checker" it should work out. And I agree that the drummer is what pushes the band's volume, so have a firm but polite talk with the drummer and get him/her to reign it in a bit ...

[BWB]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Now with my new band we use a PA consisting of a small mixer, two RCF ART 322A's active speakers (mains) and a couple of monitors. Only vocals and keys go into the PA. With this setup, we've never yet gotten any complaints about the sound, only good feedback. My 500W bass amp with 6 x 10" speakers has so far been powerful enough to get the people moving on the dancefloor. I wouldn't mind to add a sub to the rig though, to get a bit more bottom for the slightly larger venues.

The two biggest contributors to a too loud overall sound is a fully mic'd drumset and a loud mic'd guitar amp. Try to skip all that on your next gig. Maybe leave a mic on the kick drum, but leave the rest. The sound don't suffer as much from that as you do from getting a rep of being consistently too loud.

Yup. No mics. Not even on the kick drum. PA for vocals only.
Monitors -- if you even use them -- for vocals only, no instruments in monitors.

Amps, vocals via PA, no mics on drums, don't use high power vocal monitors. If you can't crank the monitors up, you can't crank the band over your ability to hear your own vocals.

Working on overall band volume is another thing to try at rehearsals, too. It's fun to crank it up and jam, but that's not necessarily what the gig needs ...

[spade2you]

Today, I think a majority of bar bands play to insane levels. If everyone can hear everything on a 3, why is everyone using 8?! Nothing better than having to tell the bar tender 8-9 times what you'd like to drink because it sounds like the guitar amp is on the bar stool on 11 next to ya. Besides, one must never forget that the human ear will distort pretty easily. That "good tone" you think you have is all a wash after a certain point.

[Ubersheist]

If you're playing a small club for 30 or 40 people, NEVER mic the sax. No reason. The only things that need to be mic'ed for that small of a club are the vocals (of course), the kick drum (probably), and maybe the high hat. That's all.

The drummer often drives the volume, and it sounds like yours is. He shouldn't be wearing ear plugs for such small gigs. He'll automatically start playing louder without even thinking about it. If he needs ear plugs, then so does everyone in the establishment.

Plexiglass in front of the drummer will help tons. Some of the noise will get reflected back to him, and he'll start playing softer. Use it in practice, too. He'll get used to it more, and change his style to adapt. It worked great for our band. It stops him from killing our ears and gets him mellow out a bit.

[T-Bird]

Hi, John.

That Fender twin something, NOT the kind of an guitar amp that belongs in a small club/pub. I bet it's 100W tube at that?

One of those tiny new Chinese Mfg. 5-15W tube amps would fit the bill quite nicely and if it's too quiet, which I seriously doubt, just mike it.

The sax player has to use really soft reeds if he needs a mic, back when I tried to play sax for a while some 20 years ago, even the solo practice level was too loud ("So, Sam, now you have bought a saxophone then". From my neighbour, the next day ).

If Your usual stages are really crammed, a 18" drum set has considerably smaller footprint than 22" for example and is quieter too. If Your drummer has lead hands so to speak, lighter sticks just break, or the tone and timing suffers badly.

The problem I've found out when playing bass and singing at the same time, is that I have difficulties hearing both well enough. That leads me sometimes to push the bass a bit higher in the mix than necessary. A dedicated bass monitor would cure that.

Regards
Sam

[awakefie]

Originally Posted by pointbass

If you don't have a sound guy then somebody needs to get out in the house while you're playing to check the volume. If you're not using a wireless, then get one. We also work somewhat smaller places with a 4 to 6 piece band (guitar, keys, bass, drums, sax, vocalist) and I routinely walk off the stage to check the volume.

+1. Get a good used wireless rig and wander out into the crowd occasionally. It can be fun, but more importantly, it'll give you an idea of what they are hearing.

[VroomVroom]

The biggest thing is for everyone to pay attention to what's going on in the club. Are waitresses looking frustrated as they struggle to hear orders? Are customers at the bar doing the same with the bartender? Are dancers either moving back from the band, or worse...not dancing at all? If "yes" to any of the above, that's the big signal for the band to turn down.

Saying "never mic the..." is way too absolute, IMO. Some sax players have a big sound, others don't. Some drummers have a heavy foot and a big kick drum, others don't. Motivation for sound reinforcement isn't always volume - sometimes you just want that sax (and kick drum) to have more presence and/or to be heard in the mix from other than just the originating spot of the sound.

The first thing to do, in my experience, is for the band as a whole to agree that this is a problem. Approach it positively (i.e. "let's make sure we get asked back," not..."Dude, you're too freakin' loud!) and explore options. Can you set up in a semi-circle? This way the cat on stage right can hear the cat on stage left, and no one feels the need to turn up. Can you agree to ease back on the drinking, at least during the earlier sets? Beer...tequila...Jack Daniels...make people turn up, hit harder, and scream louder. How about lighter sticks for the drummer? Or, as mentioned above, an unbiased ear in the crowd that will be respected by the band?

One more thing - as you rehearse, do so at a whisper. You'll quickly learn that intensity and the ability of the band to rock the house is not a function of volume. The result is that the band will sound better as a whole, and you can tune the overall volume to the room, not the band.

I've lost gigs - probably most of us have - because of volume issues. It stinks, and it's frustrating because it's actually one of the easiest band dynamics to control. If everyone can check egos and agree on the bigger goal, you can definitely solve the problem. Good luck...

[megadan]

Turn down the drummer. Everyone else will follow.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by Rockin John

By the nature of the thing there's a certain requirement for a 'kick ass' style but the volume gets out of control and we're getting complaints from bar owners and audience alike.

Please ... how should a band of this kind set up and arrange itself for the correct loudness both onstage and for the audience? What's the correct procedure? How should is be done?

The following is a very technically involved and difficult process: turn it down! And then DO NOT turn it back up!!

If you want to get technical about it, go to Radio Shack and buy an SPL meter, use it to set the max gain on each amp for a total of about 90dB in the middle of the room, and leave your amps set there.

When there are people in the room the apparent volume will drop a bit because the bodies will kill some of the sound bounce - which won't hurt you. But the solution is simple: turn down, then don't turn up.

PS: I use a wireless on my bass and we don't have a sound guy, so I walk out into the listening area and help the band set levels.