Playing on a silent stage

[RAM]

Does anyone play on a silent stage? Currently my band is working with IEMs. The guitarist has abandoned his rig and goes through an emulator, the keyboardist is straight-direct, and they've asked me to abandon my cab. The next step is to replace the drums with electronic drums.

The goal is to have a nearly silent stage where we could turn up or down as much as we want so bar/club patrons don't feel like their ears are bleeding. It seems that most of the time, bar/club mixes essentially mix the PA according to the loudest instrument (usually the drums). If our drummer is playing through electronic drums, we could theoretically be no louder than a car stereo, no?

Taking this one step further, I've heard that more and more bands are moving in this direction, but haven't seen any at the bar/club level yet. I met a guy 15 years ago who said he was back stage at a Steve Miller show during the concert, and the stage was dead silent; all he heard was the audience. That was because the band played without amps.

Anyone else have experience with this?

[Humblerumble]

At our church we went to this setup and it is definitely not as fun playing, but it much easier on the setup I have a friend who plays in a CCM band and they have this type setup and it is very clean but sounds very "vanilla". That is my only experience so take that for what its worth

[Hoover]

I played on a European tour 20 years ago that took this approach, and I gotta say, it was one of the singularly most UNGRATIFYING musical experiences I have ever had to suffer through.

I think it might be slightly -- but only slightly -- more enjoyable nowadays due to the improvements in electronic drum technology. But imho the single biggest detriment to "silent stages" being fun gigs is the fact that electronic drums not only sound like kakapoopoo, but they coerce the drummer into playing a certain way that makes it harder for everyone to come to a consensus about the Groove/Pocket.

Plus personally there's nothing like feeling your own bass sound & the kick drum through your body, so at the very least I'd advocate getting a Thumper or ButtKicker on your stool in addition to IEMs.

[megadan]

The most obvious problem is that, despite advances in technology, electronic drums and emulated guitars still don't sound as good as the real thing.

My main thought is this:
If clubs had PA's that were capable of making me sound just like a record in your own home, I'd probably go that way. But most PA setups are meant to augment the sound of the stage as well as replicate all ready processed (by amps) tones, not create their own. 95% of PA's are in mono, which pretty much kills the 'as good as record' idea.

Anyway, silent stages are great for corporate jazz gigs, but it's just not gonna happen for rock and roll.

[Pacman]

Close. We were using IEMs, and everybody went direct, but the drummer used an acoustic kit. We just put him behind drum shields - I love IEMs!

[Deluge Of Sound]

I'm a little curious as to why anyone would want to go with this approach... I suppose if you're a "bar band" (inferring from the first post) you wouldn't want to drive anyone away with your volume, but if you're playing a gig--as in, people paying money/showing up to see you perform--I think I would feel almost naked without any noise on stage.

[Pacman]

With IEMs (good ones), you don't get the feeling that stage is silent because you've got all the sound you want in your ears. It's a much cleaner, more intelligible sound - added benefit is that singers are more in tune, because they're not having to push too much and they can hear themselves better.

[megadan]

Originally Posted by Deluge Of Sound

I'm a little curious as to why anyone would want to go with this approach... I suppose if you're a "bar band" (inferring from the first post) you wouldn't want to drive anyone away with your volume, but if you're playing a gig--as in, people paying money/showing up to see you perform--I think I would feel almost naked without any noise on stage.

Yeah, especially since most clubs aren't designed with acoustics in mind, your number one fan could be standing right up front and centre of the stage, and all they would hear would be thumping on plastic and string noises, with the reverbed out wash of a band coming from somewhere behind and to the sides of them. Not a very satisfying experience.

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by RAM

Does anyone play on a silent stage? Currently my band is working with IEMs. The guitarist has abandoned his rig and goes through an emulator, the keyboardist is straight-direct, and they've asked me to abandon my cab. The next step is to replace the drums with electronic drums.

The goal is to have a nearly silent stage where we could turn up or down as much as we want so bar/club patrons don't feel like their ears are bleeding. It seems that most of the time, bar/club mixes essentially mix the PA according to the loudest instrument (usually the drums). If our drummer is playing through electronic drums, we could theoretically be no louder than a car stereo, no?

Taking this one step further, I've heard that more and more bands are moving in this direction, but haven't seen any at the bar/club level yet. I met a guy 15 years ago who said he was back stage at a Steve Miller show during the concert, and the stage was dead silent; all he heard was the audience. That was because the band played without amps.

Anyone else have experience with this?

If you are looking to bring down stage volume look into the Bose L1's. The added benifit of using them is that they work as backline, monitor and, for small/mid sized venues front of house. They can get quite loud, but you can play with them at a lower volume because of the spread and how far it throws. They also are very gentle on a an audiences ears compared to how a lot of venues set up front of house or for listenters close enough to the stage to hear the backline.

We usually use them as backline/monitors and front of house and do our own sound. We use pods and electric drums. Sometimes, if the place is larger or has a strange stage area, we will use them as our monitors and run lines out to the FOH PA. Either way the stage sound is very fun and comforatable, all the players can hear each other and it doesn't blow peoples ears out in front of the stage.

[Deluge Of Sound]

Originally Posted by Pacman

With IEMs (good ones), you don't get the feeling that stage is silent because you've got all the sound you want in your ears. It's a much cleaner, more intelligible sound - added benefit is that singers are more in tune, because they're not having to push too much and they can hear themselves better.

But you're still not getting that air-moving-around-you feeling that I, and I can only speak for myself here, absolutely love.

I don't know, maybe I'm just stuck in the mindset that "there's no replacement for displacement." I think I'd have to see/play with a live band that only used IEMs to really wrap my head around the concept.

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by Hoover

I played on a European tour 20 years ago that took this approach, and I gotta say, it was one of the singularly most UNGRATIFYING musical experiences I have ever had to suffer through.

I think it might be slightly -- but only slightly -- more enjoyable nowadays due to the improvements in electronic drum technology. But imho the single biggest detriment to "silent stages" being fun gigs is the fact that electronic drums not only sound like kakapoopoo, but they coerce the drummer into playing a certain way that makes it harder for everyone to come to a consensus about the Groove/Pocket.

Plus personally there's nothing like feeling your own bass sound & the kick drum through your body, so at the very least I'd advocate getting a Thumper or ButtKicker on your stool in addition to IEMs.

I have to disagree with your opinion on electronic drums. My drummers switched to e drums and they always sound like a really awesome acoustic kit miced up really nice. The sound of electronic drums is dependent on two things: 1. The drum module (contains the drum sounds) and what is outputting the drum sound. If you put it through a crap PA or montitor they won't sound too good. We put ours through a bose L1 and I would swear there is an acoustic kit behind me when we play. Best part is that we can actually mix the drums where WE want them in a mix regardless of how hard he hits.

I also haven't had any problems with groove or pocket. You play them a little different, but a decent drummer should still be able to make them groove. Maybe you are just too used to having the drums feel like they are blasting right next to you. That's something I don't miss at all.

[Jerry Ziarko]

Originally Posted by Pacman

With IEMs (good ones), you don't get the feeling that stage is silent because you've got all the sound you want in your ears. It's a much cleaner, more intelligible sound - added benefit is that singers are more in tune, because they're not having to push too much and they can hear themselves better.

Exactly! Add in the fact that a good FOH engineer can get a near perfect mix without stage amps and monitors screaming in a confined area at 110db+. It may not be for everyone, but I have extended my music career by years. Having severe tinnitus in my right ear has made playing next to an acoustic kit without IEM's nearly impossible for me.

[Pacman]

I should add that when the mains are kicking, you get plenty of the "rumble" of low end and the feeling of air moving.

[RAM]

One thing I should note is that, while we haven't played out yet, we only practice using IEMs, and in the past year, since adding them to our gear, we've noticed a huge difference in how much our vocals have improved! That's a big selling point, to be honest.

As it stands today, the drumset is completely acoustic, save for a few poorly placed mics, and my rig is still live, but with a post-pre feed to the board. Our last practice I pulled the bass cab out of the mix, and I actually kind of enjoyed the more "pure" tone of my bass and preamp - an Avalon VT-737sp (there are, of course downsides, too).

The guitarist (who's planning on funding the purchase of a new drumset) says he found an electronic drumset that uses actual drum heads but has electric modules...I haven't seen these yet, but he says he's read they're pretty close to the real thing.

We're all beginning to age (around 40 years old) and don't want to go back to the days when we lug around tons of gear and have 2 and 3 hour setups and tear-downs. We've decided this entirely a hobby for us and our backs (especially mine, since I've had 4 back surgeries in the past 12 months) would thank us.

The Bose system is something we've never talked about, and quite frankly, I'm not sure why...it sounds interesting. Either way, I'm convinced we're moving in this direction, but I'm happy to get the feedback I'm seeing. It may not change where we're headed, but it will certainly help me know what to expect.

Pacman - I especially appreciate your insight, as I know you make (or made???) your living playing in the armed forces, and music is pretty much a way-of-life for you. We haven't talked much, but I always respect your comments and feedback.

Thanks so much to everyone who has contributed to this thread, and if there are other opinions, or even more of what's already been said, please chime in! I've been conspicuously (or inconspicuously) absent for the past several months, first because of work demands, then because of my most recent back surgery, but I get sooooo much valuable insight from so many people on these boards.

[crazyguy832]

There's no such thing as an electronic drum kit that uses actual heads. Closest thing is a regular drumkit with triggers... which is similar, but not the same, as an electronic kit (you can take any acoustic kit and throw triggers onto it... stuff the drums with towels and you've got a silent kit, voila!). Also, e-kit tech is at the point where, if you're going through a kickass speaker setup, it sounds just as good as a regular acoustic kit (but I'm also talking e-kits that cost thousands and are far beyond most bands' bankrolls).

As a whole... quiet stage... great idea. If your band thinks it's a good idea, I say go for it. Sure, you might miss out some of the rumble of the instruments, but hey, you'll save your backs and your ears.

^_^

[Jerry Ziarko]

While you are technically correct, he is probably talking about these:http://www.rolandus.com/products/pro...x?ObjectId=599 They have a feel very similar to real drum heads. Of course that does come at a high price. ($5k+) While nothing electronic is a exact replacement, the Roland TD 20S, is nothing short of amazing IMO. The drummer I work with uses these live, and I am floored how good they can sound at times. Also he uses different drum kit samples for select tunes, and it makes the whole musical experience that much more enjoyable.

[ric1312]

Originally Posted by crazyguy832

There's no such thing as an electronic drum kit that uses actual heads. Closest thing is a regular drumkit with triggers... which is similar, but not the same, as an electronic kit (you can take any acoustic kit and throw triggers onto it... stuff the drums with towels and you've got a silent kit, voila!). Also, e-kit tech is at the point where, if you're going through a kickass speaker setup, it sounds just as good as a regular acoustic kit (but I'm also talking e-kits that cost thousands and are far beyond most bands' bankrolls).

As a whole... quiet stage... great idea. If your band thinks it's a good idea, I say go for it. Sure, you might miss out some of the rumble of the instruments, but hey, you'll save your backs and your ears.

^_^

Actually e kits aren't that expensive unless you buy the top model that has all the bells and whistles. I believe the top model roland kit is over 6k. The ones under it are very nice too. My drummer bought the cheapes roland module the Td3 and bought a hart dynamics e kit to plug it into. The kit was like $900 and the module was around $300. So, he got a great sounding kit for less or about the same as an acoustic kit.


Of the drum samlpes I've heard the roland ones have the best sound IMO. His kit sounded great right out of the box, plugged straigt into my bose L1 with no tweaking. All we did was pick the kit we liked the most and adjusted volumes of the individual drums.

Since the bass modules are behind me and right to his side, it gives the audio illusion of a real acoustic set behind me.

However, I think he should have bought a roland e kit to go with his module/brain. The hart triggers, at least for his model, can be problematic. All the of the toms are mesh pads and work fine. He's broke a hi hat twice, because it was set up wrong and sometimes cymbals don't trigger. I have another friend that has the expensive roland kit and never had any problems with it.

So, if you go with an electronic drum set you don't need to spend a lot on the module if you go roland...IMO, but make sure you get a good kit so the triggers work right. Add a good speaker for the output and you are set.

My drummer loves it because he doesn't even break down anymore, he can pick up the whole thing and pop it in the back of his van and then just plunk it down on stage.

[Deacon_Blues]

Back on track...

I love to feel the bass from my six 10" speakers right behind me while on gigs. It really helps me feeling the groove and keep it up. That's nothing you can get from any headphones or in-ear monitors. I guess if there was a powerful PA with good subs, I'd be as happy with that as a replacement for my rig, but if not, I want my amp behind me. Mostly, my rig is powerful enough so no DI'ing or micing is necessary.

Ric, I'd love to try out a Bose L1 set, mainly for vocals/keys on gigs where everyone use simply their own amps. I just have a question about them: How sensitive are they to feedback? Any difference compared to standard monitors in this perspective? A second question, not for you to answer I think, is whether they're available here, alternatively if they have versions running on 240V instead of the american standard 110 V... Guess I need to go googling a little...

[RAM]

Anybody familiar with BFD drums? They've been ordered by our drummer and guitarist. Here's a link... http://www.fxpansion.com/index.php?page=53&tab=148

The deal, as I understand it, is our drummer will replace his existing drum heads with these mesh heads, but not yet replace his cymbals. According to my guitarist these are designed with multiple triggers per drum head and also can "read" various dynamics of a drum hit (i.e.: hard hit vs. soft hit). This website shows the different drums and cymbals that have been triggered, and while I haven't yet listened to them, my guitarist swears they sound like the real thing.

I was then turned on to DDrums...I'm not sure how these are being incorporated with us, but there are a lot of well known bands using these in live applications.

Our total initial outlay of cash was a few hundred for the heads and a bit more (I think) for the cables and brain. They MIGHT be here for our next practice.

My guitarist is a total techie...that's his schtick. We'll see what the results are, but the claims are very strong. I'm optimistically skeptical.

One more point to make...we DO plan on having a subwoofer on stage to reproduce the lows lost by not having speakers beyond the PA. This sub will apparently serve a dual purpose of providing lows to us, as well as providing the low end for the PA.

Right now we're definitely in the experimental stage...

[Pacman]

Originally Posted by Deacon_Blues

Back on track...

I love to feel the bass from my six 10" speakers right behind me while on gigs. It really helps me feeling the groove and keep it up. That's nothing you can get from any headphones or in-ear monitors.

I used to think this way, too.