Playing vs. Memorization

[The Golden Boy]

One of my gigs is with a cover band. A few months ago I was doing a few shows with them, and I started noticing that if we started a song while the singer was doing something, talking to someone, getting a drink... he would RUSH back to the mic to hit the cue, rather than taking his time and waiting for it to come around again. I thought it was weird, and actually kind of unprofessional looking- especially for as slick of a band as they are. I mentioned it to the guys, and it turns out they have the songs memorized. They play their parts- kind of independently- and go. Think of playing to a record- they queue the record and go, but they're musicians, and they appear to be good musicians- but to my way of thinking, they approach the whole thing oddly.

I tend to think of music as a bit more fluid, and part of the fun of playing is reacting to changes.

I had a gig with them this past weekend, and for whatever reason, a whole lot of people REALLY wanted to hear Michael Jackson's "Billie Jean." It's not on our setlist, it's nothing I've ever played... but after about 6 requests for it, by the middle of the third set, I figured out that little bass line and started playing it. To my amazement, the drummer started playing along. I was shocked. I've played with the keyboard player for more than 5 years, I know that guy can figure most anything out on the fly- so it didn't surprise me when he started playing it.

Anyway, we ended up doing a passable version of the song, I was really surprised that those guys actually went along with it- especially as they'd really impressed on me about the whole "do not deviate from the learned song structure" thing.

I may have just gotten myself fired for pulling that, but it was fun, the guys seemed to enjoy it, and the audience sure did!

[The Golden Boy]

Anyone have any opinion on this?

Or is this the wrong section?

[Skel]

I think it's just bizarre that you are surprised that a cover band has their songs memorized, first of all. I don't get that part at all - of course they have the songs memorized. You were expecting chord charts and lyric sheets for "Free Bird"?

Regarding you're initiation of improvising "Billie Jean", it's very tempting to jump in like the drummer did, then the rest of the band is kind of stuck. If the keyboard player was next, who knows if he was in the right key, and who knows if your singer had the range to sing it, or knew the lyrics. This just doesn't sound professional in any way, shape, or form. You are getting paid to entertain the bar's customers, and not YOU. I learned early on to NEVER start playing the intro to a song my band didn't do. I was just trying to show off and that's not professional, it just get's the audience confused.

But the customers DID request the song over and over. I would probably consider honoring the request if I knew for sure my band mates all knew the song, or at least the singer knew the lyrics and could sing it if the song was a really simple I-IV-V thing.

The main thing is...you took this risk and you pulled it off, but you could have caused a train wreck. If you didn't like the experience of doing memorized "robot" type cover band music, that's ok...just don't play in a cover band. There are jam bands out there or more "free style" cover'ish bands, but they usually have about 2 customers out there watching.

[Mon Rominee]

Hey man, I know exactly what you are saying...thing is with tribute and coverband type sets, most of those cats don't really have the interest to deviate from the recorded version...like there's no room for improvisation...the singer should be able to pick up and know the song just instinctually...and be able to riff and pickup where it's applicable, and the musician's should do the same...be it vamping 4 bars longer on the main riff, or doubling the chorus or whatever....that's a good skill to have...

You sir also have the benefit of having a good ear and trusting your abilities to pull that kind of stuff off on the fly...and funny thing, you just added a new song to the setlist from now on....hahaha...not a bad thing at all, especially if it's a crowdpleaser. Was it the best thing to do in that situation, I dunno...but hey....it won them over.

[Johnny Crab]

Congrats for getting them to play follow the leader.

That can be a VERY nice experience and better than being a human jukebox. We do similar things a LOT where if 3 out of 4 of us know or recall most of a requested song, it will get done. A Zoom H4 records every show in case this happens AND to pickup up any improv/fun zones/once-in-a-lifetime moments.

Once you have a song "memorized" it is easier to play(make it look easy and have fun doing it) and PLAY WITH without a trainwreck.

Singers do like to hit certain key start/stops the same as YOU like to hit primary bass notes/lines on a covered tune that you KNOW the audience will expect you to play. You probably wouldn't want to miss a key bassline(i.e. the intro bassline to Amarillo Highway or Gimme Three Steps or Mustang fill-up-the-dance-floor Sally).

[jive1]

I just had a discussion about this with our drummer today. In my new band the musicians are good musicians, but the singer is just a singer. He has a great voice, but he's more of sing a long to CD type of singer. It can be frustrating because he's listening for cues that we may or may not play because either we haven't played the song before, or we're taking personal liberties in performing the song.

My advice to him is to work off the drummer. That's where I get my cues from, and regardless of what the guitarist or keyboard player is doing, I know I'm locked in the groove ready at a moments notice to change dynamics, tempo, song sections, etc.

[The Golden Boy]

Originally Posted by Skel

I think it's just bizarre that you are surprised that a cover band has their songs memorized, first of all. I don't get that part at all - of course they have the songs memorized. You were expecting chord charts and lyric sheets for "Free Bird"?

Regarding you're initiation of improvising "Billie Jean", it's very tempting to jump in like the drummer did, then the rest of the band is kind of stuck. If the keyboard player was next, who knows if he was in the right key, and who knows if your singer had the range to sing it, or knew the lyrics. This just doesn't sound professional in any way, shape, or form. You are getting paid to entertain the bar's customers, and not YOU. I learned early on to NEVER start playing the intro to a song my band didn't do. I was just trying to show off and that's not professional, it just get's the audience confused.

But the customers DID request the song over and over. I would probably consider honoring the request if I knew for sure my band mates all knew the song, or at least the singer knew the lyrics and could sing it if the song was a really simple I-IV-V thing.

The main thing is...you took this risk and you pulled it off, but you could have caused a train wreck. If you didn't like the experience of doing memorized "robot" type cover band music, that's ok...just don't play in a cover band. There are jam bands out there or more "free style" cover'ish bands, but they usually have about 2 customers out there watching.

I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this...

I look at music as more than just a series of notes in a structured time. The most important thing, IMO, in being a musician is listening to everything that's going on and being able to react to the changes.

I believe "knowing" a song and "memorizing" a song are two different things. Have you ever read with a little kid learning to read? They do tricky things like memorizing the book; they can recite each page, exactly word for word- but they're not reading. Until you make the kid follow the words with their finger, you don't know they're reading. It's kind of like that- knowing the intro goes two measures, into the first verse for 6 measures and then into the chorus. IF the singer missed the cue after the second measure, you're screwed. That's what I'm talking about. Only knowing to follow structure, and not understand the song.

About going into "Billie Jean"

I've been subbing for these guys, on and off, for about a year. I think I have a pretty good handle on how they all are as far as musicians, and they're all quite competent. I've worked with the keyboard player for the past 5+ years- he's a monster; he'd be in my "ultimate band," internationally known heroes or not. I do know the singer knows most lyrics to most any cheezy pop song you can think of. The guitar player is better and more versatile than me. The drummer is good.

"Billie Jean" doesn't seem like it's a difficult song- and it's not. Two parts. The intro is also the verse and the chorus, the only change is the bridge ("people always told me...").

While it may have been somewhat unprofessional, it wasn't any more uncalled for than for them to call out a couple of songs that weren't on the set list that I hadn't worked on- including one I'd never played. Again, we're talking late third set- when we're about the only ones near sober in the joint. That doesn't exactly excuse my actions, but it's far from "showing off" my mAdD improvisational sKilLz.

Regarding "free style cover-ish" bands...

One of my other gigs is in a Rolling Stones tribute act that does quite well. As if the Stones aren't the "loosest" band in the history of the universe... For that, having a GREAT Mick and a great Keef keep the Stones vibe going. Add to that a great drummer with a wide understanding of music and a great guitar player- we can, and do, go outside the standard arrangements, work with each other and work inside the framework of the songs- and it still is like The Stones. And somehow we manage to pull off having a few more than 2 people at our shows.

[The Golden Boy]

Originally Posted by jive1

I just had a discussion about this with our drummer today. In my new band the musicians are good musicians, but the singer is just a singer. He has a great voice, but he's more of sing a long to CD type of singer. It can be frustrating because he's listening for cues that we may or may not play because either we haven't played the song before, or we're taking personal liberties in performing the song.

My advice to him is to work off the drummer. That's where I get my cues from, and regardless of what the guitarist or keyboard player is doing, I know I'm locked in the groove ready at a moments notice to change dynamics, tempo, song sections, etc.

And that's where being a "musician" comes in. Having an idea of when things are coming, when they're changing, and pulling it off.

You know who's a total badass at it? The Super Duck. When he moved up here we've gotten together to make the rock a few times- as well as did a one off project. When we jam, it's taking songs we sorta "know" and roll through them. The Duck pulls them off like he knows them, at least as well as the rest of us.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy

....You know who's a total badass at it? The Super Duck......

Well he is a FIB after all.

[Skel]

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy

I'm not exactly sure where you're going with this...

I look at music as more than just a series of notes in a structured time. The most important thing, IMO, in being a musician is listening to everything that's going on and being able to react to the changes.

I believe "knowing" a song and "memorizing" a song are two different things. Have you ever read with a little kid learning to read? They do tricky things like memorizing the book; they can recite each page, exactly word for word- but they're not reading. Until you make the kid follow the words with their finger, you don't know they're reading. It's kind of like that- knowing the intro goes two measures, into the first verse for 6 measures and then into the chorus. IF the singer missed the cue after the second measure, you're screwed. That's what I'm talking about. Only knowing to follow structure, and not understand the song.

About going into "Billie Jean"

I've been subbing for these guys, on and off, for about a year. I think I have a pretty good handle on how they all are as far as musicians, and they're all quite competent. I've worked with the keyboard player for the past 5+ years- he's a monster; he'd be in my "ultimate band," internationally known heroes or not. I do know the singer knows most lyrics to most any cheezy pop song you can think of. The guitar player is better and more versatile than me. The drummer is good.

"Billie Jean" doesn't seem like it's a difficult song- and it's not. Two parts. The intro is also the verse and the chorus, the only change is the bridge ("people always told me...").

While it may have been somewhat unprofessional, it wasn't any more uncalled for than for them to call out a couple of songs that weren't on the set list that I hadn't worked on- including one I'd never played. Again, we're talking late third set- when we're about the only ones near sober in the joint. That doesn't exactly excuse my actions, but it's far from "showing off" my mAdD improvisational sKilLz.

Regarding "free style cover-ish" bands...

One of my other gigs is in a Rolling Stones tribute act that does quite well. As if the Stones aren't the "loosest" band in the history of the universe... For that, having a GREAT Mick and a great Keef keep the Stones vibe going. Add to that a great drummer with a wide understanding of music and a great guitar player- we can, and do, go outside the standard arrangements, work with each other and work inside the framework of the songs- and it still is like The Stones. And somehow we manage to pull off having a few more than 2 people at our shows.

To me, this is much more information than was provided in your first post. A lot of it makes sense now. Of course you can "go outside the standard" with really good musicians who know how to improvise and recognize cues just by a look from the person most likely to give the "look" to go back to the chorus, for example. And I know what you mean about the difference between "knowing" and "memorizing" a song, but to me, for a lot of cover songs, the last thing you need is to be trying to predict very much. It just invites mistakes. Good musicians playing as a group can screw up and nobody even notices because they are simply good. But not everybody has that much talent. I just need to think more about what you said, but again, with the additional info you provided, it paints a completely different picture to me.

[jerome_oneil]

So the lesson learned is not to play with competent musicians. When you play with the energetic and mediocre, you learn how to work through those missed queues and fills and forgotten lyrics, and still have a good time.

When you can do that, then you're tight.

[The Golden Boy]

Originally Posted by jive1

Well he is a FIB after all.

And how far into a 1-3/ 4-0 thing do you want to take this??

[The Golden Boy]

Originally Posted by jerome_oneil

So the lesson learned is not to play with competent musicians. When you play with the energetic and mediocre, you learn how to work through those missed queues and fills and forgotten lyrics, and still have a good time.

When you can do that, then you're tight.

Au contraire...

The "competent" musician has a handle on how to play in context with the piece.

Extraordinary proficiency means nothing if you can't "roll" with other musicians. It doesn't matter how "right" you are, if you're the only one "right" and everyone else is doing something different- it doesn't matter how "right" you are- you're still "wrong."

When you can work through missed cues and forgotten lyrics and produce a seamless end-product- that's a "win."

[The Golden Boy]

Originally Posted by Skel

To me, this is much more information than was provided in your first post. A lot of it makes sense now. Of course you can "go outside the standard" with really good musicians who know how to improvise and recognize cues just by a look from the person most likely to give the "look" to go back to the chorus, for example. And I know what you mean about the difference between "knowing" and "memorizing" a song, but to me, for a lot of cover songs, the last thing you need is to be trying to predict very much. It just invites mistakes. Good musicians playing as a group can screw up and nobody even notices because they are simply good. But not everybody has that much talent. I just need to think more about what you said, but again, with the additional info you provided, it paints a completely different picture to me.

Herein lies the rub.

Everything I've done for the past 25 years has been predicated on a "reactive" mentality. Whether it's original music or covers- the most important thing is working as a unit, and not simply only "knowing your role."

With this band, in the past year or so- I had ONLY done exactly as the script called for. Several months into it, I had it explained as a "memorization" thing. Through a dozen or so gigs, things were ONLY as rehearsed. That's why it was a shock to do something other than the rehearsed performance. And shocking to me to pull out something that wasn't rehearsed.

Any other band I've played with or been a part of, I wouldn't have batted an eye at pulling something off, off the cuff. But, because of the background of this band, especially in light of how THEY work it, regardless of the proficiency of the members, the way they ran the band- that's what made the situation unique.

Dig?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy

One of my gigs is with a cover band. A few months ago I was doing a few shows with them, and I started noticing that if we started a song while the singer was doing something, talking to someone, getting a drink... he would RUSH back to the mic to hit the cue, rather than taking his time and waiting for it to come around again. I thought it was weird, and actually kind of unprofessional looking- especially for as slick of a band as they are.

To get off on a tangent, I love it when the singer rushes back to the mic to start singing. One of the things I have always hated to see (and hear) is a singer standing in front of the mic waiting to sing, breathing and swallowing in the mic for everyone to hear. Our guitarist does that, and though he's a brilliant singer, I often hear him breathing and snorting in the mic, and it irritates me to no end. And worse, he points the mic directly to his nose. Me, if I'm not singing, I never stand in front of the mic, and if I sing, I never go up to the mic until the very last second. Sometimes I'll even run. I think it looks and sounds much cooler.

[Skel]

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy

Herein lies the rub.

Everything I've done for the past 25 years has been predicated on a "reactive" mentality. Whether it's original music or covers- the most important thing is working as a unit, and not simply only "knowing your role."

With this band, in the past year or so- I had ONLY done exactly as the script called for. Several months into it, I had it explained as a "memorization" thing. Through a dozen or so gigs, things were ONLY as rehearsed. That's why it was a shock to do something other than the rehearsed performance. And shocking to me to pull out something that wasn't rehearsed.

Any other band I've played with or been a part of, I wouldn't have batted an eye at pulling something off, off the cuff. But, because of the background of this band, especially in light of how THEY work it, regardless of the proficiency of the members, the way they ran the band- that's what made the situation unique.

Dig?

Golden Boy, I didn't even read this post (I'm SO tired) but I was just thinking about the title of your thread, which is the essence of what you are saying (or asking- whatever). Yes, there is a difference between memorizing and knowing a song. And why, in your example, the singer has to rush up to start on time, is because he is going by memory and not "knowing" the song - I see what you are saying. Let me read your posts again tomorrow, but I think we don't really disagree on anything. Sorry i misundertood and was a dick about it.

[Musiclogic]

Playing in a band shouldn't be this contentious......EVER!

[The Golden Boy]

Originally Posted by Skel

And why, in your example, the singer has to rush up to start on time, is because he is going by memory and not "knowing" the song - I see what you are saying.

Sorry i misundertood and was a dick about it.

It's not really that the singer doesn't know the song- it's more like the band is almost like a backing track in the way that they view the arrangement as inflexible.

I didn't think you were being a dick- I just didn't know where you were going...

But now that I know you were being a dick, I'll get outraged.

[Skel]

Originally Posted by The Golden Boy

It's not really that the singer doesn't know the song- it's more like the band is almost like a backing track in the way that they view the arrangement as inflexible.

I didn't think you were being a dick- I just didn't know where you were going...

But now that I know you were being a dick, I'll get outraged.

LOL. Yea I was thinking "how could you memorize a song if you didn't "know" it? It's kind of a fine line, but I think you mean by "knowing it", you understand that's it's just a song that isn't etched in stone. And you understand its structure so "missing" something doesn't phase you - you can "recover" no problem. If you understand anything about chord progressions, and/or music in general, you can stray from the original version, even if it's something as simple as just waiting another round for the beginning vocals to start. And I do think that opening up and being a little creative with song instead of being a CD player is a good and healthy thing to do. Why these guys do it the way they do, I don't know, but some musicians I've worked with are just neurotic. They aren't type A leader types - they follow and don't think. Maybe the song is interfering with their drinking. And it only takes one guy in the band to be like this to cause what you're talking about.

About playing "Billie Jean" on the spot like that; Yea if you have the musicians that can do it, go for it. Nothing wrong with that at all and it's fun.

[jive1]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

....... Me, if I'm not singing, I never stand in front of the mic, and if I sing, I never go up to the mic until the very last second. Sometimes I'll even run. I think it looks and sounds much cooler.

If I'm singing lead on a song, I walk up to the mic prior to when my vocals come in. I use it as a visual cue to the band that the solo/jam should come to an end and we're going back into the verse. Once I'm at the mic, the band has 4 measures max to finish up their jam.