Prerecorded drums in a live show: thoughts?

[Taylor Livingston]

The music project I'm working on right now is kind of a combination of trip-hop (DJ Shadow, Massive Attack) and 20th century classical (Schoenberg), plus some... "post-rock" I guess (A Silver Mount Zion). Slow, dark stuff mostly. I write the music, and play bass guitar, electric organ, and drums, and I have a cellist and a double bassist.

The drums are recorded and then usually processed and cut up a la Portishead. I'm trying to figure out how to handle the drums in a live situation. Using a recording of the drums is a possibility because I wouldn't have to lose the processed sound of the record, and it would mean less stuff to set up, which is a plus since we probably won't be playing big venues (the interest in non-funky music in New Orleans is small). I would probably still do some live manipulation with loopers and effects.

But, this would violate my musician's instinct, specifically that a live show should be live. I've seen some soloists soloing over a cd, and I thought it was weird and non-dynamic. Obviously, the bands I mentioned (Massive Attack and Portishead) use some prerecorded beats for their live shows, when they could easily do everything live. Another consideration here is the format of the recording: a cd player in a live show just kind of makes me itch (although I know people do it). Vinyl's a little better, but I checked out prices on dub plate cutters... ouch.

So what are your thoughts on prerecorded beats (or anything prerecorded in general), as musicians and as members of an audience?

[Munjibunga]

Ick and ick.

[JimK]

Agree.

Same goes for 'Pre-programmed Bass'...like a friend of mine's band(No wonder he hasn't asked me out to see them; I got the skinny from another friend that saw them).

Awhile ago, maybe in Bass Player, some peoiple wrote in about a certain Classic Rock tour that was going around; IIRC, there was no bassist on this tour....I do recall one of the bands was Steppenewolf.
That's Classic Rock?!

...and just want to add-
A co-worker of mine could care less about "Karoke' LIVE performances. He sez, if he's spending $50-$100 per ticket, he wants it to sound as good as the cd he listens to in his house.

[TL5]

How inportant to your sound is the manipulation/processing added to the drum beats?
Can a drummer recreate a close enough facsimile? Electronic kit maybe?

Frankly, I could care less where the drums come from, drum machines, sequencers, prerecorded grooves, all are valid in my book depending on the style of music.
What I don't like, are the 'air musicians' who pretend to be playing the sound the tape/machines are playing back.

question concerning one point, you said:

a cd player in a live show just kind of makes me itch (although I know people do it). Vinyl's a little better,

There's a reason why record players in the car didn't catch on. I'm curious how you think vinyl is better?

[Taylor Livingston]

Originally Posted by TL5

There's a reason why record players in the car didn't catch on. I'm curious how you think vinyl is better?

The reason record players didn't catch on in cars is that the vibrations of a moving car would be picked up by the needle, introducing a ton of rumble into the audio signal. Try as I might, I can't figure out how this relates to my situation. I plan to perform only on stationary surfaces.

[TL5]

Originally Posted by conical johnson

The reason record players didn't catch on in cars is that the vibrations of a moving car would be picked up by the needle, introducing a ton of rumble into the audio signal. Try as I might, I can't figure out how this relates to my situation. I plan to perform only on stationary surfaces.

Those vibrations would also cause the needle to skip/bounce across the disc, as did taking a corner etc. My turntable will skip if one of my kids slams a door down the hallway.
How it relates, is in a live situation the potential for a vinyl groove to malfunction would be greater than a CD, unless the stageing is very stable and/or the band moves with a soft step - IMHO.
The fidelity od the sound could be debated by analog purists, but generally a Cd would sound better than vinyl. I'm just curious as to what context vinyl would be better than a CD. Scratching the beats maybe?

ASIDE:
The American Heritage® Book of English Usage.
A Practical and Authoritative Guide to Contemporary English. 1996.

3. Word Choice: New Uses, Common Confusion, and Constraints

§ 78. could care less / couldn’t care less


I could care less! you might say sometime in disgust. You might just as easily have said I couldn’t care less and meant the same thing! How can this be? When taken literally, the phrase I could care less means “I care more than I might,” rather than “I don’t care at all.” But the beauty of sarcasm is that it can turn meanings on their head, thus allowing could care less to work as an equivalent for couldn’t care less. Because of its sarcasm, could care less is more informal than its negative counterpart and may be open to misinterpretation when used in writing.

[Taylor Livingston]

The existence of countless DJs in the world - some of whom still use vinyl - would seem to prove the viability of turntables in stage situations - even situations in which thousands of people are dancing and the floor is vibrating due to huge subs.

What I was talking about is purely aesthetic. Obviously, this is only an aesthetic thing for me to be considering - I know for certain that we will sound better with a cd playing the drums from the record than we would if we tried to duplicate them live. I've made it a point to ignore image when it comes to music, but ultimately, this is an image thing. I'm wondering if people will automatically write my band off if we use prerecorded sounds. This is really a pretty stupid thing for me to care about, because it has nothing to do with music. So I think I have my answer. Thanks for the responses.

[TL5]

That's cool, I wasn't trying to bust your chops.

I'm fully aware of the dj/vinyl thing although it's not something I've paid close attention to. I'm wondering to what extent the vinyl is used beyond 'scratching' (which is a similar to the sound you get when a record skips)?
Don't answer that question, as that's one that I really do not care to hear the answer for.

[Taylor Livingston]

No offense taken - I have a hard time striking a balance between speaking well and sounding friendly online - I either sound bitter or like I don't know anything about anything.

Really, what I meant was that turntables are more accepted as an instrument as a result of DJ culture and increasing numbers of bands with DJs, than are cds. Ultimately, I think people who are interested in unusual music will not care too much about the look of the band.

But I'd still be interested in hearing comments, especially from anybody who does something similar in their own music.

[Blackbird]

Timbuk 3 had pre recorded drums. Then again, they were a bit of a novelty act.

Unless you're doing hip hop, I say live is best.

[BassChuck]

Interesting post. As far as pre-recorded music/sounds in live performance, I'm not bothered by it at all. It's your job as the musician to get the best sound to the audience, and signal processing is an important part of many music presentations.

Have you considered a sampler with various loops and sound FX that you need. With a computer based sampler you can have very long loops and if you place the same sound on different keys you can play them back at different tempos.

Many touring Broadway shows use this method with keyboard players triggering the samples. It takes some time to prepare it all, but then the job is done.... time to rehearse.

[grunlohd]

It's certainly easier to set up and tear down a drum machine than it is an actual kit... I played in a trio with a DR-808, guitar and didjeridoo for awhile, and it drive any soundguy we worked with nuts. But, it worked in one respect: we had a decent gigging setup, and didn't have to deal with hauling a vanload of drums and cymbals and assorted other heavy hardware. Plus, a machine doesn't screw up, timing-wise, so that kept me on my toes. It's easy to get the drum sound you need, too. Drum machines never complain, never lose tempo, and rarely skip out on gigs... But, as a rhythm section, you get to feeling lonely-- after all, if the songs don't sound right, any mistakes must be the human bassists' fault. But, if you're willing to deal with that responsibility, there are some positives.