Proper use of a metronome..

[John Wentzien]

Scroll to 5:18 on this video.
This is the one and only "legit."reason the metronome was invented for.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsmbF...eature=related

[John Wentzien]

Here's an email I got from Jeff Berlin on this subject today...

"The click was invented for composers to write down a tempo mark for the musicians to play the compositions at. It was never intended as a device to practice with."

I happen to agree 100%.

Any thoughts?

[Ed Fuqua]

Yes, but I'm too much a gentlemen to express them.

[John Wentzien]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Yes, but I'm too much a gentlemen to express them.

Go ahead Ed...You won't hurt my "feelers"

[John Wentzien]

I'll start...Unless you want to sound like "Kraftwerk"..the groove has to move.

period!

Being locked in to a mechanical device is the surest way in the world to "kill the groove"....IMHO

Takes away all of the "Human" quality in the music...

The "groove" has absolutely NOTHING to do with perfection!

[narud]

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

Here's an email I got from Jeff Berlin on this subject today...

"The click was invented for composers to write down a tempo mark for the musicians to play the compositions at. It was never intended as a device to practice with."

I happen to agree 100%.

Any thoughts?

disagree. possibly if jeff had worked with a metronome, he could have worked on developing a more relaxed groove that wasnt on top of the beat?

[FunkMetalBass]

Find me a groovin' piece of music that isn't well locked-in with the time, and I'll find you ten more that are.

[John Wentzien]

Originally Posted by narud

disagree. possibly if jeff had worked with a metronome, he could have worked on developing a more relaxed groove that wasnt on top of the beat?

He sure doesn't get lost!
Jeff 's style is more of a lead instrument thing going on...
I personally think it works fine!

I think his style, tone and presentation matches what he is trying to do perfectly...

[John Wentzien]

I'd really like to hear arguements on playing with a click VS not...

and WHY it is better/worse...

Peace guys!

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

Any thoughts?

Lots of good reasons to use a metronome.

They can be used to practice a new tune so you get the timing correct, which is particularly useful if you take pickup gigs and have little time to learn the music. The rhythmic aspect of music is just as important as the melodic aspect- learning a the notes of a piece out of time is as useful as learning a piece in time without the proper notes. You can have a great, natural internal sense of time that will get you through most things. This is just as useful as having a great, natural internal ear that will get you through most things Neither one of those is good enough to cut the mustard in many situations. If you have the practice tools that will allow you to practice the time perfectly for such situations, it's foolish not to take it. That's like accepting sheet music that's mostly right.

Jeff has also asserted that you don't need a metronome to learn good time. While this have been proven wrong with people who did learn great time with a metronome who couldn't beforehand, there's a difference between great time and perfect time. A lot of the guys who emphasize metronome use are studio players. There are a ton of studio players who have to play along with a click on recordings. A click doesn't care if you think your time is pretty great. It's perfectly timed, so practicing with an imperfect method is as prone to fault as practicing with imperfect sheet music.

[John Wentzien]

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

Lots of good reasons to use a metronome.

They can be used to practice a new tune so you get the timing correct, which is particularly useful if you take pickup gigs and have little time to learn the music. The rhythmic aspect of music is just as important as the melodic aspect- learning a the notes of a piece out of time is as useful as learning a piece in time without the proper notes. You can have a great, natural internal sense of time that will get you through most things. This is just as useful as having a great, natural internal ear that will get you through most things Neither one of those is good enough to cut the mustard in many situations. If you have the practice tools that will allow you to practice the time perfectly for such situations, it's foolish not to take it. That's like accepting sheet music that's mostly right.

Jeff has also asserted that you don't need a metronome to learn good time. While this have been proven wrong with people who did learn great time with a metronome who couldn't beforehand, there's a difference between great time and perfect time. A lot of the guys who emphasize metronome use are studio players. There are a ton of studio players who have to play along with a click on recordings. A click doesn't care if you think your time is pretty great. It's perfectly timed, so practicing with an imperfect method is as prone to fault as practicing with imperfect sheet music.

Well I do lots of studio work with a click....But I don't "work-out" with it.. No problem at all....

Do you listen to a click on gigs?? Hope not...I'd fire you on the spot!

edit...I'll usually let the drummer listen to the click in the studio and have it OUT of my headphones if the tracks are being done at the same time..

[John Wentzien]

If you are syching with pro tools..there are a lot of times that you have to have a click-track...I prefer to have it out of my headphone mix.....If I am dubbing in I'll just ask for the click to be out and just give me the drummer in my feed.

[CapnSev]

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

Any thoughts?

I think it got beat to death in Jeff Berlin's threads.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

Well I do lots of studio work with a click....But I don't "work-out" with it.. No problem at all....

You can do lots of studio work with sheet music and practice without it. Does that make it smart to teach people to never practice with sheet music? Of course not. Just because one can often develop great time over the years without using a metronome doesn't mean it's the best idea to never practice with one, just as it's not the best idea to never practice without sheet music. Using your ears to get you mostly there is like using tableture to get your notes mostly there. Jeff going against using a metronome is like promoting using tabs

[John Wentzien]

Originally Posted by CapnSev

I think it got beat to death in Jeff Berlin's threads.

Not really....I want an open discussion with some opinions on this..
We already know Jeff's views..He's not here...lets hear it!

I'm very interested in what people think...

[John Wentzien]

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

You can do lots of studio work with sheet music and practice without it. Does that make it smart to teach people to never practice with sheet music? Of course not. Just because one can often develop great time over the years without using a metronome doesn't mean it's the best idea to never practice with one, just as it's not the best idea to never practice without sheet music. Using your ears to get you mostly there is like using tableture to get your notes mostly there. Jeff going against using a metronome is like promoting using tabs

Good point...But how can you develope an internal "time-clock" whe you are using a machine as a crutch....what's gonna happen without it..?

edit...The time ALWAYS changes once you are in the studio...all the practice with a "NOME" is out the window almost evey time!

[narud]

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

Good point...But how can you develope an internal "time-clock" whe you are using a machine as a crutch....what's gonna happen without it..?

how can you develop an internal time clock at all if you dont have a static reference to what time is?

what about when you develop what your own idea of what time is by never using a metronome and your feel sucks?

[narud]

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

Not really....I want an open discussion with some opinions on this..
We already know Jeff's views..He's not here...lets hear it!

I'm very interested in what people think...

this discussion has been had quite a bit over the years here including in jeffs old forum. id say the majority of people didnt agree with jeff.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by John Wentzien

Good point...But how can you develope an internal "time-clock" whe you are using a machine as a crutch....what's gonna happen without it..?

That's a silly misconception. Look at it the same way but with melody/theory. How can you develop an internal sense of melody (aka a "good ear") when you are using sheet music as a "crutch"? That's along the same lines as saying you'll never develop original music if you study music theory and get a teacher- neither are true. The only thing that can make those items a problem is the user. You can't blame music theory study if someone studies it and lacks originality, just as you can't blame a metronome if someone uses it and doesn't have good time without it.

[John Wentzien]

Originally Posted by narud

this discussion has been had quite a bit over the years here including in jeffs old forum. id say the majority of people didnt agree with jeff.

Well GREAT...let's hear some evidence!!!!