pros shouldn't hang out with amateurs too much

[dhadleyray]

I find myself having a different view than amateur musicians. They still live in a musical fantasy world, while I'm a victim of watching the same scenarios over and over.

They usually look at you with blank looks when you tell them a fact about either music, the road, bizness or whatever. They think the harder they practice, the better their chances at success. If you pop their little fantasy bubble, you become the enemy. They ask your opinion, but hate the answer, especially if it doesn't match with what they've read in "bassplayer magazine."

The kids know it all, I'm amused that a 15 year old living at home with mommy, "thinks" he knows more than 6 guys around a table that have each been playing 30 years... With success ranging from buying a house, to playing with Jeff Beck, or having sold 50 million copies of 1 release.

If you play well, people are afraid of you, if you have a bad night, they say you are crap. If you give lesson, at least 2 or 3 kids will have the attitude of "I bet I'm better than you, and I'm only 16..." Luckily, I don't teach and, truth be told, don't give a **** if they learn or not, I"VE got the knowledge, and if you don't want it.. Fine..

I'm not sure if there is any comaraderie amongst a lot of players anymore. When I look at talkbass, I find as much confrontation as info related to bass.

I'm from a generation that was told to "pass the knowledge on," but I'm starting to wonder, is it worth the hassle?

I would love some mature and thoughtful views on this. I'm not set on any viewpoint, but food for thought would be nice. As you get older, you don't have the patience for that you did before..

Thanks,

D.

[Sonic_Death]

It is very easy to stereotype a lot of young and amateur bass players when you have dealt with so many of them acting the same ungrateful and elitist way every time. The truth is though, that there are a lot of people out there who are still respectful and willing to learn. Unfortunately though, those kinds of youngsters are becoming a rare breed.

When I was taught how to play Black Magic Woman by my Dad on his bass, that was the first time I had ever picked one up, and from that day I have not stopped wanting to learn. No matter who the musician is, even if the person is not as 'good' as me, I usually find I can learn something from them. Patience and respect are hard to find nowadays, but there is a large amount of people out there, and with every one you will find a different demeanor.

My point is, be patient. Whether or not you want to pass on what you have learned is definitely your option, but I would keep a circumstancial view on that. If the person seems to be worthy (in a sense that they are respectful and willing to learn), then I say go for it. If the person wants to be a jerk and thinks they are too good for you, then forget 'em.

[KingOfAmps]

Originally Posted by dhadleyray

I find myself having a different view than amateur musicians. They still live in a musical fantasy world, while I'm a victim of watching the same scenarios over and over.

They usually look at you with blank looks when you tell them a fact about either music, the road, bizness or whatever. They think the harder they practice, the better their chances at success. If you pop their little fantasy bubble, you become the enemy. They ask your opinion, but hate the answer, especially if it doesn't match with what they've read in "bassplayer magazine."

The kids know it all, I'm amused that a 15 year old living at home with mommy, "thinks" he knows more than 6 guys around a table that have each been playing 30 years... With success ranging from buying a house, to playing with Jeff Beck, or having sold 50 million copies of 1 release.

If you play well, people are afraid of you, if you have a bad night, they say you are crap. If you give lesson, at least 2 or 3 kids will have the attitude of "I bet I'm better than you, and I'm only 16..." Luckily, I don't teach and, truth be told, don't give a **** if they learn or not, I"VE got the knowledge, and if you don't want it.. Fine..

Hey D. All of this sounds normal. It may suck that such a reality has not changed but honestly that all sounds normal. You're "cursed" in a way because you can see thru it and recognize it for what it is. If you don't recognize that you can recognize these things then you'll become distracted and bummed out. Let it go because it's really just normal and not gonna change.

[Poop-Loops]

What were you and your peers like as an amateur/kid?

[CamMcIntyre]

I'd like to think that i'm not one of the amateur or stupid kids. I'm 20, have been playing since i was 11. Every time i've met another bass player for a lesson, if they're giving a masterclass to the combo i'm in, etc-i've tried to gain as much info as i can from them. As i feel like i'm the one that is there to gain something-i can read everything i can get my hands on, but that doesn't teach the real world lessons that come from something i can't simply read-experience.

I'd do the best that you can to ignore the kids that think they know more, they don't care what you know. It's those of us that try to absorb every last detail that care and want to learn from you. The kid that thinks he knows everything isn't going to want to continue to be a musician once they realize they have to work hard, but those of us that feel like we don't have a choice-value what you guys know.

end of rant.

[ihateusernames]

An underlying concept of what you are noticing is way deeper than interactions between musicians of differing stature for lack of better term. What you describe happens in every realm of life.

An overplayed paraphrased thought on this in the business world is: only associate with those equally or more successful than yourself or risk being brought down to a lower level. Now we've all encountered those who take this line of thinking to the extreme and they're often given dirogatory descriptors, when the truth is, they are truly intune with the laws of success. (success not always equalt to social position or financial gain)

In personal daily life - an angry or depressed person naturally gravitates toward other angy or depressed persons. A cheerful person will seldom stick around that dynamic, or will be brought down given enough exposure. Rarely will the cheerful person influence the angry or depressed person to get on board. Not impossible, just highly improbable. They're both where they feel they need to be...or in pro vs. amateur musician they're both right in their own mind.

I'm sure some polyanna will pipe in with a bright and cheery 'just bring the other person up to your knowledge/skill/happiness/etc. level' and even have an example of how this has played in their life. So my disclaimer reads as such: there are no absolutes in human interaction, once you experience this concept from both sides it makes much more sense.

[Moe84]

Well I have been doing this band thang about 22 years and i can see some of where you are comming from..Now I never played with Jeff Beck or sold millions of records but..I live in a small town and in my area there just are not alot of really good bass players and from time to time I am approached by young bass players who are like "Dude your like the best" well i dont believe that and I am always learning weather it be from something here or from another bass player i meet..your never to old to learn sumthing i say....But after ya give them advice of what u know and have lived i end up hearing I am a piece o **** bass player or i am a know it all and i never ever think like that....Its just sometimes ya see somthing ya have done or been thru and ya try to help and it bites ya in the butt.....But I continue to help anyone i can either they can take my advice and use it or dont doesnt really matter to me its up to them to help themselves..

[lemur821]

Not to be rude, but I'd like to put in a vote for never writing posts in bold letters.

[pklima]

I'm not a full-time pro but I find it nearly impossible to communicate or work with a lot of amateurs. It's like they're from another planet... to them rehearsals, buying gear and making good-quality recordings are good things; to me those things are bad because they require time and money and I like to keep them to an absolute minimum.

I've asked some people how much they'd want for a recording session and they took that as an attempt to poison and ruin music for them. I've also known people whose band has existed for over a decade and who were proud to inform me that they they lost money every year... to them that's evidence of integrity and dedication.

It's actually pretty flattering to be viewed as an evil cynic who's destroying music.

[*smb]

I don't think you're giving much credit to my generation. I'm sure when you were first learning some kids thought they knew it all after a few lessons too. And how would you have felt if the older guys who really knew their stuff thought it probably wasn't worth the hassle to help out people who were just getting their bands together? I think that's pretty low, to be honest.

I don't know which particular six guys and table you're referring to, but if the purpose of your learning bass for all that time was to make a poor attempt to lord it over people who don't have your, ahem, experience then it sounds like 30 years wasted. You're surprised to find confrontation? Well what do you expect if you judge everyone based on age and experience?

[dhadleyray]

Originally Posted by Poop-Loops

What were you and your peers like as an amateur/kid?

Respectful..

[morf]

Originally Posted by *smb

I don't think you're giving much credit to my generation. I'm sure when you were first learning some kids thought they knew it all after a few lessons too. And how would you have felt if the older guys who really knew their stuff thought it probably wasn't worth the hassle to help out people who were just getting their bands together? I think that's pretty low, to be honest.

I don't know which particular six guys and table you're referring to, but if the purpose of your learning bass for all that time was to make a poor attempt to lord it over people who don't have your, ahem, experience then it sounds like 30 years wasted. You're surprised to find confrontation? Well what do you expect if you judge everyone based on age and experience?

A big +1.

[dhadleyray]

Originally Posted by lemur821

Not to be rude, but I'd like to put in a vote for never writing posts in bold letters.

He was doing us "old" timers a favor!

[*smb]

Come on then dhadleyray, let's have a response! You wanted a discussion after all, but you've posted twice since mine and haven't addressed anything I said.

[dhadleyray]

Originally Posted by *smb

I don't think you're giving much credit to my generation. I'm sure when you were first learning some kids thought they knew it all after a few lessons too. And how would you have felt if the older guys who really knew their stuff thought it probably wasn't worth the hassle to help out people who were just getting their bands together? I think that's pretty low, to be honest.

I don't know which particular six guys and table you're referring to, but if the purpose of your learning bass for all that time was to make a poor attempt to lord it over people who don't have your, ahem, experience then it sounds like 30 years wasted. You're surprised to find confrontation? Well what do you expect if you judge everyone based on age and experience?

I'm not surprised to see you're british. You've given this thread, and those who read it an example of what I'm talking about. Youthful mindset, and idiosyncratic cultural ignorance.

How about people like Jack Bruce, Pete Brown, Myself, Clem Clempson, etc.

Respect for anything is lacking in the current scene. Another point, is when I was 15 I could play, most of the kids I see now are skipping steps because they have no patience. I try to care, but I've found myself dealing with business people more than musicians. I like the fact that they are purely about the "bottom line." With musos, it gets complicated, with kids, depending on who raised them, it's even worse.

If I want sarcasm, or patronisation, I'll call you.. but it's not a mark of intelligence or a good player.

Remember something kid, you aren't owed any help from veterans ok? As a matter of fact in London nobody wants to help each other because there's so little work around. You would become "competition." I haven't bought into that way of thinking yet, the reason for this post...

Regarding your other statement, about "giving credit".. Isn't that supposed to be earned? Don't pat yourself on the back yet kid, you still, more than likely haven't done anything yet to rise above the noise. I'm asking people perspectives, yours has been registered... Next?

[*smb]

Originally Posted by dhadleyray

I'm not surprised to see you're british

... Next?

Well from where I'm sitting you failed to answer anything I raised and simply chose to go down the path of pathetic insults rather than proper discussion. You fail to spot the fallacy in your own logic - according to you the problem with younger musicians is that they think they are better than they are, however you still firmly believe that at that age you yourself were a good player. It's pretty obvious that you were an example then of what you complain about now.

I think you misunderstand the credit comment - I'm not out there pretending I no more than people but I'm trying to learn from each musician I see, and every piece of music I hear, and analysing techniques from genres I don't listen to and instruments I don't play to improve myself as a player. I've worked hard to be the player that I am, and I think your generalising about amateur and youth musicians is a gross injustice to a lot of people.

(Edit) I don't think anyone claims to be owed anything by "veteran players" - I'd rather go and see as many different talented musicians play and learn from them that way than anything else. And leave out the "kid" or we might start calling you "grandpa" - that ok? Haha

[morf]

Here comes mine then, as my +1 is not explicit enough.

I'm 21, I've been playing a little over a year now. I take lessons from a 50yr old jazz upright bassist who is quite the amazing player.

The way I see it, kids today simply dont say to themselves "Well I'm a beginner, I completely suck, I'm gonna shut it and agree to everything thats being said to me". There is a thrive to understand (thats how it was for me anyhow) the instrument and the music, which is often explained by teachers or other players in ways that aren't accessible to everyone. In such cases (and I see it happen all the time), young players contest opinions and ask questions and give out their opinion on the matter.

Are you discredited in their eyes? Hell no. Do you really think those kids think for a second that they could be better players than someone whos been playing 30+ years? That's ridiculous, and thats really, IMHO, taking people for idiots.

Sure, kids today like to have fun with their instruments, they do like to skip stuff because its less fun, and concentrate on, for example, slapping the heck out of the bass, because that IS fun and "new" to them. Eventually they'll get bored and go back to the basics.

Do you honestly think that there is a lack of respect for old timers? I practice every week with an old timer whos known throughout the world for his skills in both technique and composition, but everytime he explains something that I dont quite get, I give him my opinion, and he understands better the way I see and feel music and my instrument, and is thus able to explain what he wants to explain alot better, in terms that automatically mean something to me.

When you were 15 you could play: thats awesome. I know 15 yr old kids that can outslap me anyday anytime on a bass. They in my humble opinion can play too. Sure, I can hold a groove better, I have more endurance, and my composition and reading skills are better, because I concentrated on that more than slapping, but thats still doesnt mean they cant play. They're just concentrating on what motivates them most and gives em the most fun before they go for the rest.

Confrontation is the best way to learn. Sitting on your ass and doing nothing but listening and practicing what old timers give until you finally understand it on your own is good, but you move ahead faster by asking questions and doubting everything until you understand it perfectly.

You attitude is condescending, and you're really thinking "well those kids are young idiots not worth my time". In 10 years time those kids will smoke you silly if they're still playing though, because they're interested enough in music to be confrontational and stand by their viewpoint until they clearly understood they're wrong, at which point they usually change their way to see things.

[dhadleyray]

Keep restoring my faith buddy!

[Woodchuck]

To the original poster: I found alot of things in that post that I felt were spot on. However; as for the comraderieship, I have to disagree a little. No matter who I've played with or met, from Flea, Norwood, and Doug Wimbish, to the local opening act and the bassist of the hot band at the moment, it's been a lovefest. Everyone exchanging tips and advice. My biggest issue is other people's perception of what they think is my success. That's always bothered me. It ranges from, "Wow, you've made it!" to "Screw you and your free instruments!"

[Jazz Ad]

Just think (honestly) of yourself at age 16 and you will get your explanation.