Publishing, submitting content, mysteries of the Biz.

[illmusician]

This is a continuation from an offtopic, topic in a previous thread that seems to bring up a lot of questions. A lot of us seems to have at least one story of submitting material to a publishing company. Please share them so newer players have a better sense of what not to do. My day job is with a publishing company and I can give a lot of perspective on what needs to be done. Please hold back the sensitive musician comments as we wish to talk about the reality of the industry.

[illmusician]

When I said crap reffering to the submissions that we toss out, I mean content that is outdated or cannot be played without going to Radioshack, Pictures from the eighties, etc. Or songs sent in written by hand...poorly, songs without a copyright, recordings with such little performance excellence it can't be considered, playing that is out of time, really poor rhythm, terrible pitch, etc. That and we compare it to the thousands of new content that we do keep that is simply fantastic that ends up in a catalog for years.

Yes, non Copyrighted songs will NEVER be considered out of liability of being sued. Just sending in your material without a copyright, it gets tossed. Just sending in material with a copyright, it gets tossed.

Sending in material to a specific person or department with all return information (include self addressed return envelope), Copyright documentation, that gets put into the pile for real submission review, luck and your skill are it.

Sending in material to a specific person with an appointment or them knowing to expect it with all return information (include self addressed return envelope), Copyright documentation... that gets an individual submission review.

By all means self publish, there are a lot of jaded, negative, angry, jealous about there own failures in music, kinda of people. but these rules apply to submitting material to record labels, agencies, etc.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by illmusician

By all means self publish, there are a lot of jaded, negative, angry, jealous about there own failures in music, kinda of people. but these rules apply to submitting material to record labels, agencies, etc.

Yeah, well it's funny you say that considering the entire recording business is in the toilet. Many of these jaded, negative, angry and jealous people had to resort to putting out their own stuff because some nimrod in charge of new submissions didn't think they spent enough money on packaging, and they ended up making up good money with it while the suits in charge stood around with their junk in their hands. And then you and other people who have power in the business come sniffing around them trying to get in on the action, a day late and a dollar short.

Face it, the reasion the music business is in the toilet is because the vast majority of people who run it are accountants and lawyers, and wouldn't know a hit song if it slapped them in the face. Therefore, they're all wowed by pretty packaging and the promise of a rich sugar daddy buying them off. And yet you guys still try to blame it on us for not being professional enough for your standards.

Well sorry I don't have $2000 to order printed promo pack folders, and sorry I can't hire Annie Leibowitz to take my promo pic, and sorry I can't spend $50,000 on a demo that sounds awesome enough to where morons who know nothing about music will be impressed by the production values. You want to know why the music business sucks so bad these days? Maybe you should all take a look at yourselves instead of us. Poor people have been responsible for some of the greatest and best-selling music in history. But nowadays, poor people don't stand a chance in hell of even getting listened to. And that's why crap music dominates the airwaves. The only way to have a hit record is to buy yourself one. The second the money runs out is the second the hits stop coming.

Used to be that musicians ran the industry, and while the money machine has always been firmly in place, there was always a chance that someone without money could impress the people in charge with sheer talent. Those days are gone. Nowadays it's ALL about payoffs and greasing palms and shiny pretty packaging, and the music doesn't matter in the least. And the industry is in dire straits because of it. And yet, all you people blame us for not being professional enough, or you blame P2P sites for downloading it for free, and you completely ignore the fact that most of you people in charge of the music business are morons. I'm not saying you personally are a moron, but your little rant about us "angry and jealous people" isn't doing much to convince me otherwise.

Hey dude, Rome is burning. Are you going to have balls and make real change in the industry, or are you going to stand around and play the fiddle?

[JimmyM]

Let me also add that if I were to follow your rules and submit things exactly as you said, my submission would go in the trash anyway, because I don't have enough money to buy my way in. And let's not pretend that it wouldn't. It costs a fortune to get a demo and promo pack together, and people should know that they don't have a chance in hell of doing anything unless they have serious 7-figure money to buy their way in. The industry is full of jerks and morons who live for the fact that they can tell other people "no."

[Thor]

This has been enlightening so far.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Thor

This has been enlightening so far.

Let me also add that all songs are copyrighted by the author automatically and registration is not needed. However, I can't blame a publishing company for needing documentation. Not that it will prevent lawsuits to have it copyrighted...but it does make paperwork easier.

What I do blame them for is the arrogance. Look at the second post in this thread...it's dripping with arrogance. It's all OUR fault that we couldn't get anywhere with them, and they refuse to take any responsibility for the demise of the industry at all.

[Thor]

Tomorrow might be a great day to try the decaf.

I remember my buddy Ronnie Dee doing this all in the 70's. The only
label that gave him the time of day was David Bowie's label in NYC, though the name escapes me. Arista? So that hasn't changed much. No doubt the industry looks a lot
different today that it did in my younger days though, in a lot of other ways.

But, notwithstanding the perceived 'tone', there may be others here interested in knowing what current guidlines in the business are if they want to go the submission route. So let's go ahead and see what we can find out.

I can certainly understand that when triage is being performed, you don't want to be thought of as the guy with the stomach wound. So it would be nice to hear
from an industry insider not only what gets you tossed in the trash can today,
but what will get you noticed.

Your point about the lamentable state of the industry has now been fully lamented on,
so let's see if we can salvage something of value here.

[JimmyM]

Would this be the Ronnie Dee who is Joey Dee's (Peppermint Twist) son?

Yeah, I kind of agree Thor...I probably did go off a little. But I just don't like to see people spend a fortune on a losing battle without knowing how deeply the odds are stacked against you, even if you do everything totally right, and even if your stuff is brilliant.

[illmusician]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Yeah, well it's funny you say that considering the entire recording business is in the toilet. Many of these jaded, negative, angry and jealous people had to resort to putting out their own stuff because some nimrod in charge of new submissions didn't think they spent enough money on packaging, and they ended up making up good money with it while the suits in charge stood around with their junk in their hands. And then you and other people who have power in the business come sniffing around them trying to get in on the action, a day late and a dollar short.

Face it, the reasion the music business is in the toilet is because the vast majority of people who run it are accountants and lawyers, and wouldn't know a hit song if it slapped them in the face. Therefore, they're all wowed by pretty packaging and the promise of a rich sugar daddy buying them off. And yet you guys still try to blame it on us for not being professional enough for your standards.

Well sorry I don't have $2000 to order printed promo pack folders, and sorry I can't hire Annie Leibowitz to take my promo pic, and sorry I can't spend $50,000 on a demo that sounds awesome enough to where morons who know nothing about music will be impressed by the production values. You want to know why the music business sucks so bad these days? Maybe you should all take a look at yourselves instead of us. Poor people have been responsible for some of the greatest and best-selling music in history. But nowadays, poor people don't stand a chance in hell of even getting listened to. And that's why crap music dominates the airwaves. The only way to have a hit record is to buy yourself one. The second the money runs out is the second the hits stop coming.

Used to be that musicians ran the industry, and while the money machine has always been firmly in place, there was always a chance that someone without money could impress the people in charge with sheer talent. Those days are gone. Nowadays it's ALL about payoffs and greasing palms and shiny pretty packaging, and the music doesn't matter in the least. And the industry is in dire straits because of it. And yet, all you people blame us for not being professional enough, or you blame P2P sites for downloading it for free, and you completely ignore the fact that most of you people in charge of the music business are morons. I'm not saying you personally are a moron, but your little rant about us "angry and jealous people" isn't doing much to convince me otherwise.

Hey dude, Rome is burning. Are you going to have balls and make real change in the industry, or are you going to stand around and play the fiddle?

Jimmy this thread was never aimed at you, don't take it the wrong way.
but,
Wow, I think I hit a nerve here. I was not talking about the music industry as a whole, and for your information the vast majority of people in the industry are musicians. Ones that play for pay and many more that don't. The ones that no longer/ can't play or write music find the jobs that are most musical or web design (teehee jk). It is your peers that go through a submission, they eventually make enough good decisions to be promoted. Lawyers and accountants make up 1-3 people of any company they are usually glad just to have a job in something mildly interesting, there job is logistics, and numbers. That is the last reason why the biz in down, the entire freakin front of Western civilization is in the toilet lets get that strait. I have lost 2 weekly gigs, and a day job because of the economy.
I digress,
Further more, Self publishing is more ideal anyway you make more off your recordings. The entire idea of submitting material is to sell yourself, musically that is A publishing company plugs your songs into a medium that is appropriate to your sound. Studios will spent hundreds of dollars finding a song that fits a theme ie "gimme something that sounds good behind a jeep driving through different terrain" we have 300 tracks ready, then it gets chopped to a 30 second sound clip. Of those 300 tracks 20 will have a hook, progression, etc that fits. Understand what I mean now. Once your song is plugged into a move granted it's longer than 30 seconds is a MINIMUM $250k in syncronization rights.
My suggestion was for getting into the established side of the publishing world. Self publishing is just as effective if you can plug your own music, or only want it for distribution purposes. I never said you needed $1000's on a press kit or $50000 on a demo, no one ever has.

And..."And yet, all you people blame us for not being professional enough, or you blame P2P sites for downloading it for free, and you completely ignore the fact that most of you people in charge of the music business are morons. I'm not saying you personally are a moron, but your little rant about us "angry and jealous people" isn't doing much to convince me otherwise"

I never put blame anywhere, you did, on yourself, just now, in your own sentence. If something I wrote you didn't do then that's your fault. If you didn't try again without asking why that is your fault. If you did some light reading on p2p sites i suggest "the economist" p2p sites never had a negative impact on the industry. In most cases it helped as it still does. Different subject different post. Most of the jaded musicians in the industry are morons that had good enough BS and were at the right place at the right time. If that makes them morons then, dang.

The money motivator is not any different than any other industry its called business. You are not old enough to know I guess, but musicians never used to run the biz. Stevie wonder might own half of his songs at this point maybe more than half. Beatles don't own there songs, Cream's first album still belongs to the label. Musicians now have exponentially more power and control over their careers than ever before. Your statement is ignorant, you must watch to much TV. YOu said this "Maybe you should all take a look at yourselves instead of us." Please don't make this a them VS us, I never did. I am you, (sic)I am a bass player. I work hard at getting gigs, maintaining those gigs, Writing, recording, and booking. All after a 50 hour minimum week working at said publishing company. That is why I wrote this topic to clarify common mischaracterizations of the industry like yours.
and..."Poor people have been responsible for some of the greatest and best-selling music in history. But nowadays, poor people don't stand a chance in hell of even getting listened to. And that's why crap music dominates the airwaves. The only way to have a hit record is to buy yourself one. The second the money runs out is the second the hits stop coming."

Where do I start with this one... Poor people (i hate using that terminology) have made music, so have rich folk. Both made good and bad music. When was the last time you met a local touring band that was wealthy? What do you consider wealthy? History shows that when we "make it" we spend our cash like less fortunate people. Meaning most don't save it, or invest it. They spend it on cars, guitars, clothing, vacations for friends, house paid in cash etc...stuff. I would say that most higher income families have kids that enjoy music but are groomed to goto College and pursue a career that has regular income, benefits, perks, etc. And for the record Britney Spears is from a lower class family she never had anything but talent until she fit the industries stencil for pop diva. After that it was a lot of lubrication, to keep her a float, what ever its pop. There isn't a single on the charts in the past 30 years that didn't have backing, "poor" people may have the most to say but it certainly doesn't mean best selling. There is no "only way to" for anything in this industry.
You seem to doubt yourself before you ever get started, don't apologize for making a mistake. Like I said in another post if you didn't have your material copyrighted and mailed to someone specific then it's a legal issue. A company won't open it out of fear of being sued.

here's another Gem "you completely ignore the fact that most of you people in charge of the music business are morons. I'm not saying you personally are a moron, but your little rant about us "angry and jealous people" isn't doing much to convince me otherwise""

What the Eff man, i moved this thread to help. Those in charge by definition have worked more than you have described. Thinking and calling them morons like what, you are better than them. You are a bigot. Like all humans I am angry at things I could have done/better. I do get jealous of bands I see signed with support that I know I can do better than. That's life kid, Do like most of do move on, shed another chart, play another song. Get off the computer and make yourself better. Rome has been burning since we got rid of the gold standard. I work the way the Biz works, change happens when we all learn a little more. No not the fiddle I am going to stand, on stage, and play the bass. for only 5 dollar cover.

[illmusician]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Let me also add that all songs are copyrighted by the author automatically and registration is not needed. However, I can't blame a publishing company for needing documentation. Not that it will prevent lawsuits to have it copyrighted...but it does make paperwork easier.

Nobody listen to this, this is (99%) completely false. Songs are not copyrighted by the author automatically. ever heard of ghost writers, or song stealing. Legally it who ever can verify it first period. That can be as simple as mailing your self an unopened copy of the song the post office is the cheapest government approved notary in the country. Registration is not needed until it goes to a publishing company, true. I never said it needs to be registered, but if it is in recorded medium (ie CD) yes it does as it places a time, date, location, and reference the medium. Who's to say you didn't record a singer songwriter show and before they copyrighted the songs you submitted it (in Nashville it happens more than you think). Dude this is exactly what prevents lawsuits, not all of them granted. Right now we have Joe Satriani and Coldplay going head to head for separately, copyrighted materials, recorded at different times, with different names, and countries, yet we still have a legal battle. Having the correct papers is just that, having the correct papers... Jimmy welcome to bureaucracy.

[illmusician]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Would this be the Ronnie Dee who is Joey Dee's (Peppermint Twist) son?

Yeah, I kind of agree Thor...I probably did go off a little. But I just don't like to see people spend a fortune on a losing battle without knowing how deeply the odds are stacked against you, even if you do everything totally right, and even if your stuff is brilliant.

I totally agree with this one... That is the purist reason for this thread. The odds are stacked against you, bad. You have a better chance making your living off casino's. I have a roommate that proved it for 2 years blackjack and hold em got him by like a stud from a 6k investment.
Like you posted, "even if you do everything totally right, and even if your stuff is brilliant." like all business', (in the sense of making money) It's not what you know it's who you know. If David Bowie said your hot soup then most likely the industry will advertise you as hot soup. If the Jazz professor at North Texas University says it, a few people will hear it, and the industry will sneeze louder. Make the best of the opportunities that our elder never did, mainly the internet. But Indie labels do a fine job of grooming bands to work. It is for less money but almost always just enough. It sounds odd but, look forward to being the poorest you have ever been, on the road, promoting your music the way you want to. Spending every dollar you got to make the next gig better. Remember that only a handful of bands actually got paid for Woodstock.

Jimmy no harshness, I don't like being barked at either. r we chill?

[JimmyM]

OK, I apologize for going off on a rant and insinuating you may be a moron. Did your post change my mind about the business? Not really. I still think it's totally based on how deep your pockets are and nothing else. The fact that someone may be very talented at what they do isn't even an issue one way or the other. All that matters is the people in line for your money got their fee.

And regardless of how nice the packaging is, unless you've been specifally asked to submit material by a particular person at a particular company, and given the exact way to address the envelope so they can tell it apart from eveything else, it's going in the trash. Let's not kid ourselves here. I've been through it more than once. Fortunately, it's a lot easier to self-record and press your music now, otherwise I certainly would have done it. Back when I was at an age that was considered viable, you still needed a few grand to make a low quality album or EP and press it. Nowadays, you can record yourself on a computer for cheap and press up as many or as few CD's as you need on your computer.

[Josh Ryan]

Ok, seems like you guys worked that out, please stay on that and be civil. Interesting read actually, thanks.

[illmusician]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

OK, I apologize for going off on a rant and insinuating you may be a moron. Did your post change my mind about the business? Not really. I still think it's totally based on how deep your pockets are and nothing else. The fact that someone may be very talented at what they do isn't even an issue one way or the other. All that matters is the people in line for your money got their fee.

And regardless of how nice the packaging is, unless you've been specifally asked to submit material by a particular person at a particular company, and given the exact way to address the envelope so they can tell it apart from eveything else, it's going in the trash. Let's not kid ourselves here. I've been through it more than once. Fortunately, it's a lot easier to self-record and press your music now, otherwise I certainly would have done it. Back when I was at an age that was considered viable, you still needed a few grand to make a low quality album or EP and press it. Nowadays, you can record yourself on a computer for cheap and press up as many or as few CD's as you need on your computer.

First, thank you and apology accepted. Talent is still the most important thing to pro music. Try to keep pop music out of the picture as not only what defines pop changes but the rules of being famous that coincide with pop changes.

In your defense artists like CC Fontana please people check out her myspace it is visually interesting. She is on a record label, She has no music, no video, no musical background, she is a model. By all means give her a shot to play music, but that much clout for a non musician? That is Whack. That is wrong and those that said yes know that they can make a quick buck ( No harm there). She can sell, a lot, with her um... assets. Can she good make music, maybe. Can she hire a lot of talent to make her music, Yes.
That is what drives a lot of the session scene. I would certainly work for her as a bassist. I would get scale if not more because of the amount of work involved. She is the idol of what we as players don't want or like. But she buys yours song, records it with players like us paying us, and provides an opening slot for you band when she tries to convince others of her "talent". Why do you think Britney dances so much? She was never known to be a knockout singer, but she has a lot of paid talent "us" to make a good show to experience.
Talent is in the eyes of the beholder. Remember you are not the target market, you are a musician. We are not even close to the majority, especially bass player musicians. The fact that you likely find your own music separates you from the masses. I think you are seeing the light at the end of the tunnel for outside the box of a musicians vs normies?

[Thor]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Would this be the Ronnie Dee who is Joey Dee's (Peppermint Twist) son?

Yeah, I kind of agree Thor...I probably did go off a little. But I just don't like to see people spend a fortune on a losing battle without knowing how deeply the odds are stacked against you, even if you do everything totally right, and even if your stuff is brilliant.

No relation to Joey Dee, sorry.

Seems like that decaf's workin' real well for you.

I concur, interesting discussion and perspective.

[TheVoiceless]

Awesome thread. I see both sides of the argument. I will say that once you get passed the fact that life is not fair you will learn to deal with the business of music.

[JAUQO III-X]

I have to roll with Jimmy on this one for the most part.

The industry is pathetic when it's all said and done..


What can a 21 year old at a label tell me?

I have never been interested in dealing with a major label as an artist. They will smile in your face and sell you the biggest dream all the while raping you(but if that's what you want,then it's kool).

If the industry was so great why does artist like,

The Dixie Chicks
Prince
George Micheals
Micheal Jackson

and so many more

End up having to sue the label they're on because some industry snake was on some bs.

The best thing an artist can do is know their worth,control their worth and maintain some integrity.


I put no faith in a label at all.

I own my own music publishing company.Why should I have to give up the ownership or the majority of ownership of songs that I write?


It's a joke and do not trust lawyers who are a part of the label or it's associates.

Hey guys,ever thought about how many artist are really happy with the deal(s) they've signed?

[illmusician]

Originally Posted by JAUQO III-X

I have to roll with Jimmy on this one for the most part. The industry is pathetic when it's all said and done.. What can a 21 year old at a label tell me? I have never been interested in dealing with a major label as an artist.

They will smile in your face and sell you the biggest dream all the while raping you(but if that's what you want,then it's kool).

If the industry was so great why does artist like,

The Dixie Chicks, Prince, George Micheals, Micheal Jackson, and so many more end up having to sue the label they're on because some industry snake was on some bs.

The best thing an artist can do is know their worth,control their worth and maintain some integrity. I put no faith in a label at all.

I own my own music publishing company.Why should I have to give up the ownership or the majority of ownership of songs that I write?
It's a joke and do not trust lawyers who are a part of the label or it's associates.
Hey guys,ever thought about how many artist are really happy with the deal(s) they've signed?

One of my mentors who was head of A&R at Stax back I the day told me this: "Knowledge is the music industry is like Vaseline. You're gonna get Funked at some point, but if you got a lot of knowledge, your expecting it and it doesn't hurt as bad."

This has been my background chuckle for years.

JAUQO III-X I enjoy your perspective and hope you continue giving that perspective. I totally agree with you and Jimmy that the industry is pathetic. It is my belief that it has become this way do to too many jobs being filled by people that should have kept on practicing. If the label and publishing, decisions were all made by the office type number cruncher the industry would be a lot more fair and regulated.

Never trust anyone over 30. Let alone lawyers/ attorney's especially if they are working for the other side.

JAUQO III-X "What can a 21 year old at a label tell me?" Being elder than the "21 year old" you can take authority and ask a question you don't know the answer to. They can tell you where the A&R person goes to lunch, drink, party, whatever. Once you got a rep at a table then its the oldest game in history, you vs them. How well could pitch your art? Enough to get a personal email to send an EPK?

JAUQO III-X, The fact that you have taken steps to control you career means you are of an educated generation of musicians like I am. You see the problem with what is and are doing something about it. Let these kids know that self publishing isn't a huge, difficult thing to setup. Plugging your art vs a publishing company with an large catalog Vs Co publishing (IMHO the best way to do it). My hats off to you, and respect you music more knowing that it has a sound mind behind it. pun intended

But, "The Dixie Chicks, Prince, George Micheals, Micheal Jackson, and so many more end up having to sue the label they're on because some industry snake was on some bs." Everyone of these cases involved politics, sexual controversy, and Celebrity/ pop status, there are different rules (BS nonetheless) when your face is that famous. Artists that were ignorant to the future when they penned their name on a contract. Artists learn and renegotiate those contracts or change labels. Just like corporate executives do, no different. Built up your cred/ clout, then make a ridiculous offer to stay or jump ship (Janet Jackson?). There are countless more, happy musicians making a living off playing on a major label that don't have the Celebrity status.

You mean that with your art you wouldn't want Verve records backing you up? If you keep doing your thing and luck is on your side coming to the table with established clout for your genre, you would be an example of one could negotiate a contract that doesn't rape anybody. Now the definition of a negotiation has been literally being described to me as "everybody leaves a little funked but no one got funked". You want your terms the label wants theirs, both sides gain and lose a little.

Keep rockin that 4 string with a low C# JAQUO III-X(that is sick dude, true ERB), I tell band mates all the time that I'd like to create the brown note with a pluck of a finger.

[illmusician]

Opening the Floor to talent agencies. Good or Bad experiences? What was the cut for the agency how good was the work, really? Was it something that ultimately you learned how to do your self? Agencies get you a gig but what about your own? Other than a lot of talking how do you get your shows packed? Promoters play a big part of making money at a show. One usually hires them on a set amount of time/ work/ pay or they get a cut of the profits from tickets sales. The more they successfully work the more they get paid.

[illmusician]

Has anybody ever tried submitting material wither songs to a publishing company or an EPK/ press kit to a venue through a manager who wasn't a member of your band. Specify if it was a family member.