R&B Then and Now.

[Fire-Starter]

What has happened to R&B from the 70's, 80's?
I have been listening to some old school like I always do like Cameo, Tower of Power, E.W.F. etc.

The one thing I really notice that is missing is the creativity.
Have we gotton to the place where it just does not matter as long as a song gets cut?

Where are the horns? there seems to be little to no horns on todays music. I really miss the power the horns brought to the old school songs. I am not totally bashing it, I still love and will always love R&B, but it has really changed and for the most part in imo, this generation has lost the connection.

I hope we get back to the creativity of the music back then. I really miss it.

[Richland123]

Check out Rafael Saadiq. He and his band do an updated style of old school Motown, Stax, and Philly soul music.

http://www.myspace.com/raphaelsaadiq

[Fire-Starter]

Originally Posted by Richland123

Check out Rafael Saadiq. He and his band do an updated style of old school Motown, Stax, and Philly soul music.

http://www.myspace.com/raphaelsaadiq

Agreed. I wish we had more of it.

[JimK]

What has happened to R&B?
...same thing that has happened to Rock, Jazz, & Country.

[DWBass]

Sad! Today's kids just dismiss real music! And Clear Channel is the epitomy of radio evil! Motown is a shell of itself! Sad! Many of those old R&B bands are still around and struggling to get gigs much less a record deal! It's old schoolers like us that keep this music alive! Never let the Funk die! Never!

[Toronto Bassist]

When I tell someone that I like R&B and they say stuff like R. Kelly and Beyonce I have to tell them haha no I mean like Wilson Pickett, Sam & Dave, Eddie Floyd, Sam Cooke, Brooke Benton...you know, real R&B.

[Toronto Bassist]

Also, some people take issue if I call old Motown stuff R&B - they'll usually say that Motown was pop music. Well sure if you just listen to the vocals, it sounds like pop...but if you listen to the rhythm section, it's doggone fonky.

[JimK]

The thing is...those now-Classic R&B tunes (Motown, Stax, Sly, James Brown, etc.) & now-Classic Rock tunes (Chicago, BS&T, Santana, Beatles, etc) were the POP music of that era.
I don't see your friends' point.

[FunkMetalBass]

Motown and Stax were both all about the catchy hook and the record sales. Barry Gordie was incredibly gifted business man at the time. They mixed songwriters and singers together left and right to see who could write the next week's hit. Aside from certain things like Stevie Wonder's "Songs in the Key of Life," very little creative music has come out of those "classics."

The definition of R&B has changed over the years too. It used to be "that black folk music" that was forbidden on radio until Elvis started doing it. Then it was re-labeled "rock & roll" (for the whiter crowd) and it was all that you could hear.

R&B from back in the day, like "Shake, Rattle, & Roll" is far different from R. Kelly style contemporary R&B of today. Today's contemporary R&B has a different ratio of Rhythm to Blues. All fine and dandy if that's what you're into, but music meshes, progresses, and people are constantly mixing in new things.

Creativity (or lack thereof) exists in every aspect of life so long as you can capitalize on it.

[CapnSev]

Originally Posted by FunkMetalBass

Motown and Stax were both all about the catchy hook and the record sales. Barry Gordie was incredibly gifted business man at the time. They mixed songwriters and singers together left and right to see who could write the next week's hit. Aside from certain things like Stevie Wonder's "Songs in the Key of Life," very little creative music has come out of those "classics."

I'm not totally sure about that. I would say that those two companies essentially created and influenced R&B. I know that Stax was originally a mom-and-pop record company where local and regional musicians came to lay down their ideas, and get to use the house rhythm section. They really didn't care what it was, some songs were hits and a lot of others weren't. I don't doubt that they all wanted to make the next big hit, but I think there's plenty of creativity and talent in those recordings.

As far as R&B then and now, I would go as far as to say they should be two different genres. I see very little similarities between the two.

[Commreman]

Originally Posted by Richland123

Check out Rafael Saadiq. He and his band do an updated style of old school Motown, Stax, and Philly soul music.

http://www.myspace.com/raphaelsaadiq

Very cool, and about as "old school" as it gets. Check out the bassline on "Staying in Love." Raphael channels Jamerson to a T!

[CapnSev]

Originally Posted by Richland123

Check out Rafael Saadiq. He and his band do an updated style of old school Motown, Stax, and Philly soul music.

http://www.myspace.com/raphaelsaadiq

I would also like to add my seal of approval to this. Very cool.

[dkelley]

I really think that what kids call R&B now shouldn't be called R&B. while the singers vaguely base their stylings on classic R&B (beyonce and others noted are good examples), most of the music from these people is boring, flat, monotonous, and really very trivial. While in the old days the music wasn't any more complex overall probably, the performances from the bands were REAL, by real human musicians, and not super accurate studio session pros who are paid to not have any individualism in their playing like you get a lot these days, but by real human formerly-jazz playing amazing musicians who were getting into the music, exposing their hearts and souls.

If beyonce and all of those other really amazing modern "R&B" singers would get with the "big beat" type bands that you get from certain modern retro-styled singers (daddy and rehab... you know the example I mean), then you'd end up with music that I'd be paying good money to listen to.

Some of the modern singers are fantastic, but the production accompanying them (and some of the modern songwriting) is so lackluster, predictable and void of soul and integrity that it's just sad.

as always, imho.

certainly rhianna et al can really belt it out there though!

[StyleOverShow]

All things change over time and evolve or disappear. The current R&B isn't the same but not without merit.

Personally, I like playing classic R&B and just don't have the same enthusiasm for classic rock (Winter brothers excluded).

-richard

[bass12]

Originally Posted by Toronto Bassist

Also, some people take issue if I call old Motown stuff R&B - they'll usually say that Motown was pop music. Well sure if you just listen to the vocals, it sounds like pop...but if you listen to the rhythm section, it's doggone fonky.

Actually, if you just listen to the vocals you'll hear a lot of gospel influence.

[DWBass]

There was quite a lot of creativity in R&B back in the day. Not just Motown or Stax but Philly Intl. was killin' with a full orchestra! Solar records and Leon Sylvers was killin' it! Songwriting was an art back then. Now, it's all just a loop and a good hook! All the singers sound alike. I mean yeah, you can pick a few out of the bunch but for ther most part, I can't tell who's singing what!! Now there are some real 'soul' singers out there with some phenonominal records that don't even get the light of day on the radio. Thank God for the internet! Even some of the old schoolers are still plugging away! Slave, We Funk Allstars, Zapp, Dazz Band, Gap Band, Charlie Wilson, Midnight Star, SOS Band, Stephanie Mills, Jeffrey Osborne, Lionel Richie, etc. All still doing it! Even classic rock stars are still doing it! Not only that, many of those acts were comprised of adults! Grown folk! Nowadays, you got a bunch of badass kids who can barely speak english much less actually sing! Yeah, things change, music changes but geez, why not for the better!?!? Todays radio is straight garbage! Did anyone peep the Philly Intl. show on PBS?? Sinbad's Funk shows on HBO? The Chicago and EW&F tour?? Please! The nonsense they play on the radio today doesn't come close! Name any current song that will be played 30 years from now!! Todays music is not timeless! It's disposable!

Furthermore.....The Temptations, Manhattans, O'Jays, Blue Magic, Stylistics, Whispers, Delphonics, Kool & The Gang...all still touring!

[ugly_bassplayer]

D'Angelo is an awesome modern R'n B artist.
His two albums Brown Sugar & Voodoo are excellent.
IMO.

[bass12]

Originally Posted by DWBass

There was quite a lot of creativity in R&B back in the day. Not just Motown or Stax but Philly Intl. was killin' with a full orchestra! Solar records and Leon Sylvers was killin' it! Songwriting was an art back then.

There you have it. Part of the role of a producer back in the day was to secure the right songwriters. I get the impression that half of today's "producers" wouldn't know good songwriting from a good sandwich. A lot of today's "R&B" songs do inspire some creativity, however. One has to be creative to make these songs sound interesting live! A lot of current "R&B" songs don't even have bass lines! And as far as interesting harmony is concerned? Forget it. A song like "Tears Of A Clown" has multiple "hooks" in it - on various levels. A lot of the stuff today has one basic surface hook, and that's it. It makes me angry.

Oh, and as far as older soul is concerned, let's not forget about Muscle Shoals!

[jeremyr]

Originally Posted by ugly_bassplayer

D'Angelo is an awesome modern R'n B artist.
His two albums Brown Sugar & Voodoo are excellent.
IMO.

he "was" an awesome artist.

Maxwell is a great current artist, along with others like Anthony Hamilton, and of course Raphael Saadiq.

[T-MOST]

The same thing that happened to Country, Rock and every other genre. New generations bring new ideas of what the music is. that's not neccessarily a "good" thing but it is the way it goes.