Selling out: Definition?

[d8g3jdh]

This is probably the most over used music term out there, with a million and one definitions, and so i was interested in what you all consider to be selling out. To me it's when you change the music you play in order to gain more fans and make more money. if you do it because you want to then its evolving. this is what separates the beatles from metallica for me.

How do you define selling out? Oh, and let's keep this civil.

[ninnlangel]

So I guess Miles Davis was a sellout all his career right ? He admits having moved to rock beats to retain audiences that where slipping to rock. Now he didn't do it for the money, but had the public not abandoned jazz slowly for rock, he might never have...

To me, selling out is when you change your music to make more money. Thus the selling in selling out. I think trying to make your message a little more accessible is not selling out.

[Dkerwood]

I think it's all about following the mainstream simply so that you can be mainstream.

Technically, I suppose it would be sacrificing the art for the business.

[d8g3jdh]

Oh, uh, yah, i meant money. fans and money kinda go hand in hand though. OP edited.

[Against Will]

Where money is more important than music. Where you create music simply to get paid. Where rock posturing is more important that meaning something and sales pitches are disguised as vague 'anti-authoritiarian' choruses.

[geoffkhan]

Originally Posted by Against Will

Where money is more important than music. Where you create music simply to get paid. Where rock posturing is more important that meaning something and sales pitches are disguised as vague 'anti-authoritiarian' choruses.

Yeah, that's more along the lines of what I think. There's nothing wrong with wanting to make money, but when it comes to playing music that you do not have passion for, to me that is "selling out."

[beyondhairy]

what pisses me off about metallica selling out is they didnt sell out, so people need to stop saying they "sold out" they didnt sell out.. they just started to suck... big difference..

see they still think they are making the same kick butt music as before, so they havent sold out, they just suck now, but the new album will hopefully change my opinion

[Munjibunga]

Look up "sell-out" in the dictionary. There'll be a picture of Green Day.

[Against Will]

Originally Posted by beyondhairy

what pisses me off about metallica selling out is they didnt sell out, so people need to stop saying they "sold out" they didnt sell out.. they just started to suck... big difference..

see they still think they are making the same kick butt music as before, so they havent sold out, they just suck now, but the new album will hopefully change my opinion

I think that's a kind of naive. Most people won't proclaim the fact that they sold out (except Jason Newsted, but whatever). Most bands aren't going to admit that they've compromised in the name of the almighty $, not even to themselves, because its essential to their aesthetic. Metallica, Green Day and their ilk, depend on people perceiving them as outsiders and rebels. It's part of the marketing machine that's working behind, they might have convinced themselves that there isn't one, or they might not even be concious of it, but they still depend on a certain image to sell to people. Few musicians can tote a lust for $ and maintain integrity enough to still push their product, the only ones that come to mind are KISS, the greatest novelty band that ever lived, and Liberace.

[Freaky Fender]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Look up "sell-out" in the dictionary. There'll be a picture of Green Day.

+1


and I'm basically agreeing with Against Will's statement too.

[FriscoBassAce]

Originally Posted by beyondhairy

what pisses me off about metallica selling out is they didnt sell out, so people need to stop saying they "sold out" they didnt sell out.. they just started to suck... big difference..

see they still think they are making the same kick butt music as before, so they havent sold out, they just suck now, but the new album will hopefully change my opinion

I don't know that they "sold out" so much as their writing simply changed. I listen to both Load and Re-Load fairly often, and I have to say that most of the songs are really good. I didn't like them at first because they were so different than what I expected Metallica to be....but there are some really good rockers on those albums.

Now, as long as they don't sell out and try to make another St. Anger type CD....I'll be happy!

[FriscoBassAce]

Originally Posted by Against Will

......the only ones that come to mind are KISS.....

If you ever listen to "I Was Made For Lovin' You" off of their 1979 album, Dynasty, then I have one word for you:


DISCO!!!

[`ash]

Selling out is when you liked a band before they were cool. Now they have become cool and everyone likes them, suddenly you feel its no longer cool to like them. Your too mature whine "hey, i liked em first" so instead you say "bah, they sold out"

or something like that

[dharma]

A sellout is somebody that has the opportunity to do something beautiful with music and falls flat. They've got the record deal, they're big, but totally let the money overwhelm their sense.

I.E. Jewel in her "dance" offering two years or so ago.

They've already put themselves in a position to get a message out there because of a great first offering, but totally crank out some record company-pleasing, dime-a-dozen crap for a follow-up.

Thus, Green Day hasn't sold out, to me. They just suck, and that's that.

Their first album, albeit platinum, was not the hot s**t everybody WANTED them to produce because they needed a band to rally behind.

It was a cold turd on a paper plate.

I have to quote Billy Joe here, "masturbation's lost its fun and I'm ****in' lazy." Yeah, that's great.

The best ever was seeing them live at VoodooFest '04. Right before the Beastie Boys came out and showed them how it's really done, Green Day played an hour-long set.

During that set, they pulled audience members up to play a song for them to sing along with. Sounds really freakin' cool ... in theory.

Leave it to Billy Joe to F it up by then ragging on the guy he brought on stage.
Hell, if I'd been put on stage at a show with 30K+ fans, my hands would shake enough it would be hard to play, too.

[georgestrings]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Look up "sell-out" in the dictionary. There'll be a picture of Green Day.

I agree - plus, they have a strong element of "just plain suck" to augment the sell-out effect...



- georgestrings

[Richard Lindsey]

I dunno, I kinda think it's a worthless concept. To me there's only music I like and music I don't, and if I like it I don't care what the person's motivation for making it was. Furthermore, until telepathy becomes universal, we really don't know as much as maybe we think we do about *why* people make the music they do. As was said above, what seems like selling out to you may, to the artist, be just suckage, done with the utmost sincerity. OTOH, music done primarily to get paid may turn out to be, in spite of the commerciality, freakin' great. Bach and Mozart both wrote to get paid, among others.

I say, don't worry about whether something is selling out or not. We probably can't define it, and we probably can't prove it anyway. Worry about whether something is *good* (however you define that) or not.

[D.A.R.K.]

*rant on*
it's a term people use when they are jealous of someone else having success. instead of judging them these folks should just worry about what they do. then maybe they won't have so much to be jealous of. i don't care how oprah or metallica do what they do, i either enjoy their offering or pass on it. follow your own path.
*rant off*
cheers
doug

[zac2944]

A "Sell Out" is what musicians and music lovers who are not talented enough or smart enough to make it in the music biz, call someone who is, out of jealousy.

Let's face it. At some point it's all about money. I play wedding gigs to make MONEY. So the songs are lame. BFD, you get paid!

When I was a young and naive punk rocking kid, I used to love calling bands "Sell Outs". That was because I still lived with mommy and daddy and didn't have to worry about things like health insurance, feeding the kids, heating a house, etc.

It's all about selling out. Sell! Sell! Sell!!!

[Rusty Chainsaw]

To quote Tool:

"I met a boy wearing Vans, 501s, and a dope Beastie T
Nipple rings, new tattoos that claimed that he was OGT
Back in '92, with the first EP
And in between sips of Coke he told me
That he thought we were selling out
Laying down, sucking up to the man
Well now, I've got some advice for you, little buddy
Before you point your finger you should know that I'm the man
That I'm the man, he's the man and you're the man as well
So you can point that f****** finger up your a$$
All you know about me is what I've sold you (dumb f***)
I sold out long before you ever even heard my name
We sold our soul to make a record
And you bought one"

'Nuff said.

[gottawalk]

I think that "Against Will" is pretty close to the "money".

It probably has a 2-fold meaning, too.

IMO, it's a state of mind as far as how you view yourself in the music field. If you're enjoying what you're doing, then any success that comes along, whether lucky, or because of a direction taken musically, then you're not selling out. If you change your direction simply for the fame, money, etc and it's nothing you WANT to do musically, then you're selling yourself out.

The other meaning would be as viewed by the public. (Prime example;

Munjibunga Look up "sell-out" in the dictionary. There'll be a picture of Green Day.

Now, the public looks at a group and determines whether or not they have "sold out" because of the style they've chosen to play and the fame involved because of it.

If Green Day actually enjoys what they're writing and playing at this point, then they probably don't think that they've "sold out". But, they could be viewed that way because some of the public think that the music they're doing is beneath them, and they're doing it just for the money and some of the public would consider that they've "sold out".

It's all relative to each person's perspective of the music in question.