Seriously..."neck dive"...???

rorykins · #1 10-09-2008, 09:12 AM

O.K....not trying to start anything here..read on!

I've noticed alot of people. (my students, my musicians friends, talk bassers) talking about "neck dive" lately. i've been playing bass for 15 years, and have owned MANY different basses, with different designs like warwick, fender, epiphone, gibson, rickenbacker, ibanez, spector and musicman.

i have experienced a few "head heavy" bass designs in a few of the basses ive played and owned, but i firmly believe that MOST cases of "neck dive" an be cured with one simple trick...play the bass in the "proper" position. now, i don't believe in telling anyone that there in a best way to play the bass, and i play some of my basses high and some of them low, however.....most basses are made to be played higher up on the body.

argument against #1)- " X bass still neck dives when im seated!"

- i think you should always have the strap on, even when seated, but also remember that mst instruments will require hanging onto in some way, especially older style instruments.

argument against #2)- "Thunderbirds and similar basses are poorly designed basses!"

-these basses were designed in the 50s-60s- (i forget) and if you do enough searching, you can find pictures and old ads that have pictures of dudes holding thunderbirds way high...resting plucking arm on the back wing...thing...you know? if you want to play it low without "neck dive, there are mods out there that remedy this, more or less. i've done this...is pretty good.

argument against #3)- "basses should be made better that that!"

- they are now, bass is a young instrument and we are still witnessing a lot of developments that have never been done before, sounds, shapes, balance, and different feels are all being pushed to the envelope by modern builders.

ok, i m not saying that YOUR bass does not neck dive, and that its YOUr fault if it does, just try playing your bass up a bit higher...its "geeky" i know, but just try it...

ok, thanks! i wanted to get that off my chest! have fun! play, play, play!

spade2you · #2 10-09-2008, 09:23 AM

I hardly call the stereotypical "bowtie" position proper. Borrowing all of my bass technique from classical guitar and the Gary Willis style of playing, the relaxed posture of playing the bass mid gut is about as comfortable as you can get with far less limitations than hanging it high or low. When playing Thunderbirds and Warwick Thumbs in this position, one can't escape the neck dive. The typical short horn also places the nut further away from the body.

NickyBass · #3 10-09-2008, 09:24 AM

I used to play a Thunderbird, and wore it high. I had to use a small bit of extra energy to keep it steady. It wasn't a huge issue, but I like to be as relaxed as possible when I play.

Eilif · #4 10-09-2008, 09:25 AM

I think you're pretty much right on. I play with my basses at a middle height, but I do realize that playing hight does facilitate easier playing.

That said, some folks don't like to, and in this era of many available instruments and instrument designs, there's no reason that folks can't choose instruments that can be played low, and not have to be supported at the neck.

Bruce Lindfield · #5 10-09-2008, 09:25 AM

I play with the bass in proper position - failry high - I have tried a few Warwick Thumb basses with neck dive - very hard to play - hated the way it just moved every time the strap slippped!

T-Forty · #6 10-09-2008, 09:35 AM

Krist Novoselic says "screw yer bowtie style playin!"

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #7 10-09-2008, 09:53 AM

That's like saying the weight of a 27lb. bass shouldn't be considered a problem so long as you rest it on a stool

If a bass requires being played in a certain position to avoid neck dive, then it still has neck dive and should be considered problematic. The best cure to having a bass with neck dive is to sell it and buy one without neck dive.

TBird1958 · #8 10-09-2008, 09:57 AM

Interesting observations, I only play Thunderbirds, any post 1988 built have a small headstock, lightweight tuning machines and the strap pin is located at the neck heel, they balance fine seated, standing at any length on the strap. Older models reverse models from the 70's and 60's have a much larger headstock and machines, the strap pin should be moved to the neck heel on these, they balance fine after that tho I'd suggest a wide strap. Unfortunately I think this issue of balance is (if left unfixed) what turns alot of players off about 'Birds, I find them an absolute joy to play, I keep the strap short so the body is just above my hip and my right forearm rests naturally on the upper 'bout. Comfy

loendmaestro · #9 10-09-2008, 10:03 AM

I own both a T-bird & a G&L ASAT. Both supposedly notorious neck divers. Sure, I may spend a small bit of energy to support the bass, but mostly when I'm not actually playing & simply holding the bass between songs. Nothing that I feel fatigued from. Also, wide suede-type straps help the situation as well.

For me, the sonic qualities & aesthetics of both basses far outweigh any perceived neck dive issues.

Just my two cents though....

Slax · #10 10-09-2008, 10:04 AM

My P-bass has some neckdive sitting down. If I use a strap and keep it at "proper" level, my wrist is forced into carpel tunnel position and causes pain in the lower registers. I simply can't play with it all the way up without my wrist making a 90 degree angle. I found playing 3 finger instead of 4 finger on my left hand helps this a little, but it's still not worth it for me to play like that.

atheos · #11 10-09-2008, 10:08 AM

My Ibanez Iceman is a total neck-diver. But hey, it's one of those basses built to look good without thinking too much about if it's actually playable. Never been a problem for me though.

Alex E · #12 10-09-2008, 10:13 AM

How about a wide-shoulder guitar strap, particularly a leather one?

They sit nicely sturdy on your shoulder and don't slip. I find that neutralizes the problem.

**Bryan R. Tyler** · #13 10-09-2008, 10:25 AM

I use Comfort Strapps and they, like the wide leather ones, also aid in keeping a neck-heavy bass in place (although I no longer have any neck-heavy basses).

One thing I've noticed is that a lot of folks who don't think their basses have any neck dive simply haven't played basses that are designed really and have no dive at all. I've personally gotten used to playing by bass at a 45 degree angle or higher, so I notice it more than someone who prefers to play with their bass closer to horizontal.

ehque · #14 10-09-2008, 10:30 AM

I think having to rest your left arm on the bass or to lift the neck up can result in injury over time. I'd rather play something that i don't have to hold in position with so much effort.

amimbari · #15 10-09-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TBird1958

'Birds, I find them an absolute joy to play, I keep the strap short so the body is just above my hip and my right forearm rests naturally on the upper 'bout. Comfy

everyone here knows I love Tbirds also, and even my DillionTbird, which has a HUGE headstock like the older Gibby's is never a problem with neckdive.

this stereotype that "tbirds are a waste" cause "you will have nothing but arm-aches from holding it up" is a joke.

I do not wear my bass around my knees, but never bowtie height as well.

one more thing, and I'll let the thread continue:

SIT DOWN TO PLAY THE BASS?

you don't sit on stage, so why should you do it in your jam rooms regardless of whatever bass you play, even if you are learning stuff?

rant over...

4Mal · #16 10-09-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

That's like saying the weight of a 27lb. bass shouldn't be considered a problem so long as you rest it on a stool

If a bass requires being played in a certain position to avoid neck dive, then it still has neck dive and should be considered problematic. The best cure to having a bass with neck dive is to sell it and buy one without neck dive.

+1

1. If you are supporting your bass with your fretting hand - you are unable to move that hand as freely as otherwise and that is not going to help you play better. Period. Dot. End of Story ... For some players / styles - no big deal. Me ? I'm not giving up an iota of facility for fashion...

2. If you wear your bass low enough that you bend at the wrist instead of the elbow - you invite carpal tunnel and you seriously constrain your ability to actually play the instrument. Krist, the fellow noted above is a Rock Star. Gary Willis also noted above is a musician... That one profession may be more profitable that the other doesn't really enter into my thinking about success in this case... the height at which one's bass should be worn should be a matter of comfort, access and ergonomics.

3. a. If installing a set of HipShot Ultralites won't cure the neck dive - IMO - that bass isn't worth owning.

b. I don't want to have to wear a strap when I'm seated in front of ProTools being bassist, guitarist, keyboardist and engineer. Strap on / off is constraiing and a waste of time. It's also one more loose thing in an area that has a lot of other 'stuff' in it. Nope bass & guitar in stands, key's on the desk, keyboard on the shelf. Patch Bay in reach - just works better for me. YMMV

c. The ASAT - a beautiful abortion of a design. The lovelest bass I don't want to play again. A triumph of form over function. Can't do any one thing that can't be done with an L2K - so why ? Fashion... Hey I'm a G&L fan. A fan of Fender guitar's and basses in general. My Tele is my #1 player as far as guitar's go. ASAT's just suck ergonomically, however beautiful they may be. Nope - L2 series, at least for me is a way better bet.

d. T'Birds - Yikes - OK- I've never played one. I've listened to a few from out front - and that is one reason I've never played one. I dunon if it's the bass or the taste of the few guy's I've heard using them but I have yet to hear one that I liked the sound of.

For the most part, with the possible exception of the EB2 and the LP Recording Bass - the words Gibson and Electric bass should not be used in the same paragraph. Reverse Firebird guitar's make my heart race on the other hand ... 335's, 175's, LP Jr's and double cut's do to. I'm not a GIbson hater - but basses are clearly an after thought for them... I detest (non-G&L) humbuckers in a bass by the way - that may be one reason that Gibby basses are not for me ... If they do it for you , then good on ya. Differnt strokes and all that...

anyway - IMO - as you can tell... I'm not tolerant of neck dive. A bass is a tool. Nothing more. If I strip the head on a screw driver - I replace it ... why would I consider a bass any different ?

Hopper · #17 10-09-2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Mal

+1

I'm not tolerant of neck dive. A bass is a tool. Nothing more. If I strip the head on a screw driver - I replace it ... why would I consider a bass any different ?

I agree. If you've got the neck heading for the ground it's a poorly designed instrument. Get rid of it!

bmc · #18 10-09-2008, 10:59 AM

If I didn't hang a shirt out, all of my basses would have belt buckle rashes in the middle of the body.

I bought a Thunderbird new in 1976. Standing up with the bass around my neck, not holding the bass anywhere, would see the headstock head for the floor. Every time.

I worked with the guitar tech at Steve's in Montreal, relocating strap buttons and eventually adding fishing weights in the control cavity.

I loved the bass. LOVED it.

But...when I play bass, my fretting hand is playing notes and not really interested in doing double time of holding a neck up.

Sold it in 78. Bought a 66 Jazz.

I don't like neck heavy basses. YMMV.

Phat Ham · #19 10-09-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hopper

I agree. If you've got the neck heading for the ground it's a poorly designed instrument. Get rid of it!

It's not always that simple. Take my Yamaha Attitude for example. It's a fantastic bass - a P bass on steroids - with tons of neck dive. The reason why it has so much neck dive is

1) big fat neck. Maybe the fattest neck on a 4 string you can find.
2) small light body
3) detuner on the E string

The combination of fat neck with light body is what gives the bass its tone. The folks at Yamaha could have give the bass a heavier body or a smaller neck, but then it would be a completely different instrument. You can put lightweight tuners on the bass but then again you're changing the tone. Billy Sheehan actually plays with a fat finger on the headstock to give it even more mass.

62bass · #20 10-09-2008, 11:30 AM

. I'm not tolerant of neck dive. A bass is a tool. Nothing more. If I strip the head on a screw driver - I replace it ... why would I consider a bass any different ?[/quote]

I agree completely. I've had too many years of putting up with neck diving Fenders and my neck and lower back is paying for it now. Sure, I use a comfort Strap. That only helps a bit. I've also experimented with playing the instrument like a bow tie. Besides looking really stupid it was not a comfortable position. The real solution is to play well balanced basses. And nothing more than 7 1/2 lbs. any more for me. When you have a light and nicely balanced bass it can be a joy to play.