So... how does a tuner manufacturer decide to display C# or Db on the tuner?

Nic. · #1 01-07-2011, 11:01 PM

Something I've been wondering... you know how chromatic tuners have the #s and bs?

So why does a tuner say C# instead of Db, for example? Does it follow the key signatures (e.g. Bb instead of A# because it's Bb major not A# major)? Or is it just arbitrary?

I know my Korg shows G# instead of Ab so I guess this is not the case.

For a while I thought it might be about which one is closer if it's off key, but investigating with my fretless also shows it's not the case.

Anyone knows?

Well this is absolutely redundant but I'm pretty curious.

**bassybill** · #2 01-07-2011, 11:44 PM

Interesting. Not sure why, but it is.

Maybe it's to do with tuning direction? Like, the display would read G, then Ab, then A if you're tuning UP to A (I know my tuner does this). But it might say B then A# then A if you were tuning down? Not sure as I always tune up to a note, not down - which is the correct way to tune, of course.

I'll check it out later with my own tuners. It may vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Nic. · #3 01-07-2011, 11:50 PM

I tried going up and down with my bass. Kept getting same result, but maybe it's because of some memory effect? Then again, I don't recall ever seeing something different, it's always the same thing.

Yeah quite likely to vary. That's why I posted, looking to see what others get too.

subexpression · #4 01-08-2011, 01:37 AM

Most consumer tuners (that I've seen) only shows # notes.
So, if you're tuning down from a D to a Db, it will show a C#.
If you're tuning up from C, it will show a C#.

Tuners are not capable of deciphering key signatures...quite simply, there's not enough information during tuning for the microprocessor in the tuner to decide between # or b.

Sharps and flats are mainly for reading music, where a sight reading musician needs to see the key signature in order to know how to alter their fingering and anticipate the notes on the staff.

Unless you're playing in a particular key, there's no need to call a C# a Db, because the process of tuning is not implying a key or scale. Tuners are key and scale neutral.

Nic. · #5 01-08-2011, 01:40 AM

My Korg tuner has both # and b and it seems arbitrary, which is why I asked.

I don't mean it deciphers key signatures. What I mean is, we have quite standardized names for the key signatures (like in the example I gave, we don't say A# major but rather we say Bb major), so the manufacturer just used that. I do a massive amount of sightreading due to my years of classical training and in orchestra.

subexpression · #6 01-08-2011, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic.

My Korg tuner has both # and b and it seems arbitrary, which is why I asked.

I don't mean it deciphers key signatures. What I mean is, we have quite standardized names for the key signatures (like in the example I gave, we don't say A# major but rather we say Bb major), so the manufacturer just used that. I do a massive amount of sightreading due to my years of classical training and in orchestra.

Strange, I've never seen a mix of both. That does seem arbitrary. I can't imagine there's a rational reason for why it would decide between # or b when tuning.
I'm completely comfortable seeing either, but a mixture of both would cause me to ask the same question you have.

I have a Korg metronome...and I love it. My guitarist in my band has a Korg tuner you're talking about (I believe it's silver), and he seems to like it. I'll have to examine it the next time we meet and confirm what you're reporting.

Given that you have a solid grasp on music theory and reading key signatures, I can safely say that your assessment of the arbitrary programming in the tuner's microprocessor is probably correct...it's not based on any rational pattern. I mean, what in the world would it be?

Munjibunga · #7 01-08-2011, 01:54 AM

Just don't buy one that shows E# or B#.

Nic. · #8 01-08-2011, 01:56 AM

Mine is the Korg CA-30. Which one is your guitarist using? Mine is black.

I'm also using the Korg Pitchblack on my pedalboard. It's not with me at the moment but I do recall seeing both...

Love the Korgs though, reliable, fast, convenient. It doesn't matter to me whether it's sharp or flat, as long as it works :3

It seems to be F# G# Bb C# Eb on my CA-30.

If we look at key signatures, we get F#, C#, Bb, Eb as a norm. G# seems to be the odd one out since it's usually denoted as Ab.

Edit- Munji, damn you got in while I was testing my tuner LOL
Honestly, I would love a tuner that gives F and C as those and passing it to an unsuspecting guitard.

subexpression · #9 01-08-2011, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Just don't buy one that shows E# or B#.

haha, no kidding!

BillyIVbass · #10 01-08-2011, 02:06 AM

I think some of it comes down to was is visually easier to distinguish or just whatever whoever made it felt like. I doubt there is any musical answer behind it.

subexpression · #11 01-08-2011, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic.

Mine is the Korg CA-30. Which one is your guitarist using? Mine is black.

I'm also using the Korg Pitchblack on my pedalboard. It's not with me at the moment but I do recall seeing both...

Love the Korgs though, reliable, fast, convenient. It doesn't matter to me whether it's sharp or flat, as long as it works :3

It seems to be F# G# Bb C# Eb on my CA-30.

If we look at key signatures, we get F#, C#, Bb, Eb as a norm. G# seems to be the odd one out since it's usually denoted as Ab.

Edit- Munji, damn you got in while I was testing my tuner LOL
Honestly, I would love a tuner that gives F and C as those and passing it to an unsuspecting guitard.

Sure, if you're counting #'s and b's as the basis for which to display on the tuner, then I guess you would be right for swapping the G# with the Ab.

I think when it comes to most consumer tuners, not much thought is given to #/b efficiency in comparison to keys with more or less #'s and b's.

When I tune, it doesn't bother me to see either a sharp or flat. I know enough to translate it.

Following the circle of fifths, I would expect to see:
C, Db, D, Eb, E, F, F#/Gb, G, Ab, A, Bb, B

F# or Gb are totally up for grabs.

Nic. · #12 01-08-2011, 02:09 AM

See, what really puzzles me is, why not just put everything as sharp?

subexpression · #13 01-08-2011, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic.

See, what really puzzles me is, why not just put everything as sharp?

Well, if you follow the circle of fifths, there is only one sharp key that would possibly make sense: F#
For that matter, you could just as well play in Gb, because there are 6 #'s in F# and 6 b's in Gb...same difference.

Otherwise, all keys are the natural note name or flat keys.

So, there's really no reason to show sharps on a tuner...because if that's the root note they want to tune to, then they'd be insane trying to play in sharp keys when they could just as easily play in flat keys and make life much easier.

Yes, several natural note keys have sharps, but there are no sharp keys you would tune to rationally.

Marton · #14 01-08-2011, 02:35 AM

It's probably just a thing of the most common alterations.
The 2 first flats : Bb Eb
The 2 first sharps : F# C#

And for the G#/Ab, it's just a matters of taste, probably... (and I don't really matters anyways !)

Nic. · #15 01-08-2011, 08:13 AM

sub- admittedly you've confused me, why would flats be easier than sharps? Wouldn't it be the same in the end?

subexpression · #16 01-08-2011, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic.

sub- admittedly you've confused me, why would flats be easier than sharps? Wouldn't it be the same in the end?

Well yes...it makes no difference to me, because if I want to tune my A string to an Ab, and the tuner has a G#, it's the same to me. No big deal.

Like me, I'm sure most people only tune individual strings to desired notes, and aren't thinking in terms of keys and key signatures...so it's irrelevant.

But, from a theoretical perspective, following the Circle of Fifths, flats are the only "keys" which make logical sense. No one in their right mind would tune to C# Major (7 #'s - wut?). So, tuning to a Db makes more sense since there are only 5 flats.

And as Marton said his post, I'm thinking the reason why #'s would be used on a tuner is because of the first two sharps in the circle.

two clicks forward (#'s) and you have D major (2 #'s), F# and C#.
two clicks backward (b's) and you have Bb major (2 b's), Bb and Eb
And, they keys of G#/Ab major are both 6 #'s and 6 b's, so it's up for grabs.

So, mixing the 2 #'s and 2 b's chromatically:
C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, F#, G, Ab, A, Bb, B

newbold · #17 01-08-2011, 02:05 PM

It's not the tuners it's the convention.

Say you are looking for a G#/Ab - if you start on the A on an open string you have to drop a string and move up the fingerboard to find your note.

If you just have to move up one position it's far more elementary.

so now you know!

subexpression · #18 01-08-2011, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbold

It's not the tuners it's the convention.

Say you are looking for a G#/Ab - if you start on the A on an open string you have to drop a string and move up the fingerboard to find your note.

If you just have to move up one position it's far more elementary.

so now you know!

You lost me.

newbold · #19 01-08-2011, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by subexpression

You lost me.

Really?

how do you move down a fret on an open string, dude?

I really lost you?

Maybe you'll want to re read that.

subexpression · #20 01-08-2011, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbold

Really?

how do you move down a fret on an open string, dude?

I really lost you?

Maybe you'll want to re read that.

I wouldn't.
I would tune it down if I needed my open A string to be an open Ab string. One of my 4-string basses is tuned to drop Db (Db, Ab, Db, Gb)...and my tuner shows C# when I tune it.

You see, we're discussing tuners/tuning and the rationale behind why some tuners display #'s and b's mixed together...not where to play notes and positions on the neck.