Something to prove?

djero44 · #1 01-23-2011, 06:28 PM

Ok, this is a bit of a philosophical inquiry which relates to being an artist that I think many of us have to deal with to some extent.

There is a part of me, be it an ego thing or whatever, that feels like I have something to prove. A larger part of me knows that is not why I play or really what i'm trying to do, but that little piece of my mind rears it's head regularly to this day, 20+ years after starting to play. It's like I need some kind of affirmation from an external source to tell me I am a good musician, or something along those lines. You know what I mean? I play music for many reasons; it is my passion and keeps me sane, I love playing and making sounds, it is a fulfilling practice for me, and I want to share all of this with the world somehow....I don't want it to be just about 'me' and my own needs. I feel a deeper calling (if you will) to music as kind of spiritual practice, and this part of me is the one that wants to just let go of all my feelings of looking for acceptance and/or recognition.

I am not looking to be a super popular musician or anything. It's not like I think I need some kind of commercial success to feel good about my art. I already do feel good about it, most of the time. I don't mind being kind of an oddball musically, in fact I actually prefer it in many ways. Even still I want to offer myself to the world and i'm still looking for the proper context for that. Over the years i've grown from being a very introverted artist and composer to playing in various bands that have connected and entertained people in different ways. This has been a very healthy experience for me. But that quite, hidden little part of me is still like 'I want to be seen!'. I know some if not many of you can relate to this experience and i'm wondering how you have approached this in your careers and in particular as composers. I've actually heard a number of peoples takes on this stuff over time, but still would like to learn more.

Anyone?

sobie18 · #2 01-23-2011, 06:42 PM

I understand where you are coming from. We need that feeling of acceptance, being wanted, and also to get our egos stroked occasionally. Same feelings apply to workers/employees; we want to be told we are doing a good job and get a little recognition. Makes you feel a part of the team, an active contributor, proud of your work, etc.

It's good to fight for feedback, whether it's positive or negative. Too many "plastic strokes" and they don't mean a thing anymore. Not enough praise and you feel ineffective and useless. However, it's how we react that will define who we are.

Get a few good/favorable comments on your playing and it goes to your head...BAM! Self-serving egomaniac and then you will expect to hear the same praise from everybody, to feed your ego. Gotta stay humble and true to yourself.

Sometimes no news is good news but at the same time, you NEED some feedback. Record yourself, examine your playing, get involved with an instructor, and look for ways to BETTER yourself. Be solid, consistent, support the SONG, and fulfill your role as the bass player. Remember, feedback can also be disguised in the form of always getting the phone call for gigs...

Rock on!

djero44 · #3 01-23-2011, 08:33 PM

You pretty much nailed it. Part of what stimulated this discussion is i've been posting some music online for people to check out, fishing for feedback. My friends who listen to it usually are just like "I like it" or whatever, I know they are sincere but i'm also looking for constructive criticism. Here on TB i've (with a little teeth pulling

) got some really helpful feedback on a recording i've done recently.

One idea that repeatedly comes back to me is 'it is the process, not the product...'. I am very into this angle, I think it is really where it is at (for me).

I will continue to put it out there, even if it is sometimes difficult to 'expose' myself, especially with my own music. I guess that is kind of the point! I've also heard a lot of interviews over the years from artists I respect who say that, of course, not everyone is going to like what you are doing, and some are even going to deride it. So be it! You can't please everyone, anyhow. I just want to put it out there and grow a thick enough skin to really express myself and take what comes from that. It's a work in progress...

Dirk Diggler · #4 01-23-2011, 09:17 PM

It sounds to me like you're in it for the right reasons, what else do you need? Someone saying your the best, that's for friends and relatives.
Drop the ego, and away go any worries.
I hope that made any sense.
Dirk

djero44 · #5 01-23-2011, 09:27 PM

Yeah Dirk, it does make sense. I know it's the right advice, but I am not always that good at it! I have heard a number of really good songs about dropping the ego. Great topic to sing about, imo.

superdick2112 · #6 01-23-2011, 09:43 PM

When I come off stage after a gig, I only feel really good about the show if I played my best, and knew that I did everything I could have done to be prepared. I don't think ego has very much to do with it - its the same as any job or endeavor I deem worth doing - if I can't do it to the best of my abilities, than why bother in the first place?

Kabal · #7 01-23-2011, 09:58 PM

As a composer I do like it when people compliment my material but even if they didn't (which is more the norm) I'd still write. But that also kind of comes from getting into a mind set of "these people don't understand so I have to keep myself going."

I think the being seen and appreciated ego thing comes from the fact that humans are social animals. That's how we got here and how we continue to be here (though that kinda opens another can of worms we shouldn't get into). So there's nothing wrong per se about wanting recognition from peers because if we're out of the group we feel out of place or we start to think something is wrong with us when there isn't.

Songwriting itself is ego driven though. Through song we're trying to tell other people either about you or about some situation that you feel is important and worthy of their attention. Even if its just instrumental there is some kind of implicit emotion being transmitted that you want known that you feel is deserving of attention. Even songs about dropping egos are ego driven because the songwriter is saying "be like me!!"

At least that's what I think...or is it?

OtterOnBass · #8 01-23-2011, 10:08 PM

I think this is more of a personality trait than a musician trait. We all take life differently. I also thrive among encouragement and praise, and wither with neglect.

djero44 · #9 01-23-2011, 10:11 PM

Yet more important points in what I consider to be a fairly complex situation. I hear you! See, this too is at the root of the whole thing for me; I want to realize myself to my full capacity, which is a continuing process, I know. It may not be an ego thing, per se, but the ego is a part of it still. The thing is i'm 34 and still trying to come to terms with my capacities and, more importantly, my limitations.

One problem with me is I think sometimes (often) i'm trying to do to much. I am a songwriter, guitarist, drummer, bass player and beginning engineer/producer. I feel like if I just did one of these things I would have a better chance of fulfilling my potential, but the way things have worked out in my life I have endeavored to seek a good level of proficiency in all of these things. Plus, honestly, I don't have the focus and discipline to do just one thing all the time. And playing other instruments greatly enhances my musical skills on the others, as well as my concepts of how arrangements and ensembles function together. So there is some give and take there, for sure.

So i'm a bit surprised y'all are reading through my ramblings here, but I do appreciate it, your input is supportive. I don't mean to be a sensitive artist type, I swear!

It is just one of those days. All I really want is to give it my all and do it well because I know I can. And perhaps even more importantly, I want to do the same for and with other musicians.

djero44 · #10 01-23-2011, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kabal

As a composer I do like it when people compliment my material but even if they didn't (which is more the norm) I'd still write. But that also kind of comes from getting into a mind set of "these people don't understand so I have to keep myself going."

I think the being seen and appreciated ego thing comes from the fact that humans are social animals. That's how we got here and how we continue to be here (though that kinda opens another can of worms we shouldn't get into). So there's nothing wrong per se about wanting recognition from peers because if we're out of the group we feel out of place or we start to think something is wrong with us when there isn't.

Songwriting itself is ego driven though. Through song we're trying to tell other people either about you or about some situation that you feel is important and worthy of their attention. Even if its just instrumental there is some kind of implicit emotion being transmitted that you want known that you feel is deserving of attention. Even songs about dropping egos are ego driven because the songwriter is saying "be like me!!"

At least that's what I think...or is it?

Great post! I can't say much more than that, this is cool and I really dig your perspective. I could get way too into these subjects....

OtterOnBass · #11 01-23-2011, 10:16 PM

Wow, I think if we were to be in the same place at the same time, the universe would implode. You sound just like me. My family has helped, and of course Sundays I get reminded of the big picture, but don't discount friends for support.

I feel like being a bassist, it's less-time consuming to become valued as a specialist, since it seems good bassists are rare, so I can still pursue all these other interests too.

SR505bassman · #12 01-23-2011, 10:30 PM

Hey - thought I'd share a couple of thoughts on what you are saying here fwiw:

"I have heard a number of really good songs about dropping the ego. Great topic to sing about, imo."

If you haven't checked it out already, Brian Wilson had a great song early on called "Hang on to your ego" that actually got released as "I know there's an answer" on the Beach Boys Pet Sounds LP. The original, I think, speaks to what you are saying.

"One idea that repeatedly comes back to me is 'it is the process, not the product...'. I am very into this angle, I think it is really where it is at (for me)."

I got this great shirt in Colorado that says "The journey IS the destination..." I was white-water rafting at the time

I love it!

Cheers!

Kabal · #13 01-23-2011, 10:31 PM

Quote:

djero44

Great post! I can't say much more than that, this is cool and I really dig your perspective. I could get way too into these subjects....

Dude...my ego is telling me it feels appreciated LOL there has to be a word for what you just said to what I said. Is this irony?

flypejose · #14 01-24-2011, 01:06 AM

You probably are a great guy for exposing yourself over something that has a stigma attached to it in our society. 1- You are not afraid to be called an “attention whore”. 2-You seem not to fear negative criticism and rejection (fear of being ridiculed). You are on the right track!

If you continue to expose yourself, you’ll certainly gonna find like-minded people to share your passion with and give/receive affirmation. This is how communities get started!

BassChuck · #15 01-24-2011, 05:19 AM

I think its important to realize that we are musicians and, as such, we have some needs and requirements that are different than others. That doesn't mean we are better, it just means that we are what we are. Some people read several books a week, other have to be involved in a physical activity. Artist (musicians) need to work with their art.

Really, for a lot of us, it comes down to not "how can i make a living as a musician", but rather, 'how can I get on with life and still fullfill my musical needs'. And this is where the ego issue comes in. How can we fullill our personal needs without the outside intervention (feedback, strokes etc etc) of other people? Its a lifelong goal and not an easy one, but if we can find ways to validate ourselves without feedback, we are so much better off when we do receive feedback.

Finding friends and life partners that understand this is a very important issue. Someone who is not an artist (musician) will have a hard time understanding why we continue to practice even years after mastering an instrument. Or why we compose music that few, if any will hear. Or why we take low or non-paying gigs playing music they don't like. Or why its important to spend time with musicians who have little life-common things with us.

djero44 · #16 01-24-2011, 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OtterOnBass

Wow, I think if we were to be in the same place at the same time, the universe would implode. You sound just like me. My family has helped, and of course Sundays I get reminded of the big picture, but don't discount friends for support.

I for one would be curious what happened if our paths did cross! Who knows? And thanks for the big picture reminder, this is a key element in the equation, imo.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SR505bassman

I got this great shirt in Colorado that says "The journey IS the destination..." I was white-water rafting at the time

Exactly! And i'll have to check out that Brian Wilson tune. That guy is a character, I read an very interesting interview with him in an old BP last year. I'm a big fan of the tortured genius thing, it fascinates me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassChuck

Really, for a lot of us, it comes down to not "how can i make a living as a musician", but rather, 'how can I get on with life and still fulfill my musical needs'. And this is where the ego issue comes in. How can we fulfill our personal needs without the outside intervention (feedback, strokes etc etc) of other people? Its a lifelong goal and not an easy one, but if we can find ways to validate ourselves without feedback, we are so much better off when we do receive feedback.

Finding friends and life partners that understand this is a very important issue.

That is right at the heart of it, BassChuck. The part about trying to live my life and fulfill my musical needs is almost word for word my internal process. Not an easy puzzle for many of us.

I have a number of good friends who all support my path and i'm very thankful for, but i've yet to find a partner who really gets it and can hang with my process. That could be another whole post...

Kabal- I think there is a word for it, but it is not coming to me. It is an irony of sorts, for sure!

flypejose- Thanks for the positive encouragement. It has taken me a long time but over the past four years or so i've pretty much come out of my shell and I am connecting with a lot of really cool musicians and folks. I'm giving it my best.

Well, i'm off to the land of no computer access for a few days again, but i'm very glad I started this conversation and that you all chimed in. I feel ready to get back at it, wholeheartedly!

Phalex · #17 01-24-2011, 09:10 AM

I'm living the dream currently. I'm not the best player around by a long shot, but I get lots of love and affection from my band and lots of other people I see regularly through gigging.

I'd say I don't seek it out, (I really don't think I do) but I certainly do dig it!