Songwriting vs. Basslines - songwriters, help!

[foq1978]

I have a problem, or at least I think it's a problem. Maybe some of you may help me:

I often start writing a song from its bassline. That's because i spend more time playing bass than any other instrument, and really like creating grooves, riffs, basslines, etc.

Ok, so the problem is: from the assline, I derive the chords. After that, I have to create, you know, the main melody of the song, the one someone will have to sing. And I find incredibly difficult to come up with the main melody after the bassline has been created.

Additional problem: I create lyrics before the final version of the melody too (I write them over the initial lame main melody, then I become attached to it - not wanting to change it in favour of a new melody).

Am I doing everything wrong from a songwriting perspective? I know Paul MacCartney always write his basslines as the last thing in his songs.

So, any ideas on how to overcome the problem (now that the bassline and lyrics are created)? Should I record everything but the vocals and start improvising until I get something I like?

ps: how come there's no specific songwriting forum on TB?

[pharmakon]

I think there's no real set formula. Go with what works! My guitarist says he can tell when a bassist writes a song because it usually starts with a bassline

That being said, one of our more popular songs among the 13 fans we have is one I wrote with a bassline starting!

I've written lyrics first; I've written chord structures first; I've written melodies first. They've all turned out to be songs

[St Drogo]

It's like what pharmakon said: there is no one routine formulaic way that always works. Unless you want to make routine formulaic music (make no mistake, there's serious money there. But it will cost you one (1) soul.)

All I can say is that I see a distinct difference between the songs I've written back when I played guitar and the songs I've written since I've heard the call and started playing bass. The latter is more problematic, because I like to start with a good melody and having that as a bassline doesn't always work. Especially if you want to add a melody later on a higher register instrument or vocals, because then you have two melodies vying for attention. It gets a little crowded. Not always a bad thing, but something to take into account.

EDIT: There is something to be said for what Paul McCartney said, because if everything else is set, you can weave your bassline in elegantly. This is the role where a bass is at it's most bassiest, if you catch my drift. Like, a supporting instrument that is it's own line, but still makes the song into a song, and not just loose parts. The bass here is like the dude's rug: It really ties the room together.

That is however not the only way by far a bass can be used. And how you choose to use it is up to you. But if you feel trapped in your pattern of writing songs, here's what I do: Put the bass aside for a while and sing a line, or hum or whistle. That way you are less bound by the familiar scales, patterns and positions you have on the bass.

Good luck!

[foq1978]

Thank you both, pharmakon and St Drogo, for sharing your experiences!

Originally Posted by pharmakon

My guitarist says he can tell when a bassist writes a song because it usually starts with a bassline

Guilty!

Originally Posted by pharmakon

I've written lyrics first; I've written chord structures first; I've written melodies first. They've all turned out to be songs

But do you feel the ones that started with the bass have a weaker vocal melody? Or not at all?

Originally Posted by St Drogo

This is the role where a bass is at it's most bassiest, if you catch my drift.

I agree and I totally "catch your drift" about McCartney's way and the role of the bass. That's why subverting it is so problematic (for me at least). Having two melodies fighting for the listeners attention can be a problem....

Again, thanks for taking your time to help me!

[pharmakon]

Originally Posted by foq1978

But do you feel the ones that started with the bass have a weaker vocal melody? Or not at all?

I don't think so. At first I would write melodies that kinda followed what we were playing anyway. Now I'm trying to work out stuff on top that doesn't exactly follow but fits. One I'm working on now, I started off by doing chords on my bass and after some time playing that, started humming something over top. So no bassline at first, and I tend NOT to write intricate lines if I know I'm singing! And I like to sing my own songs. At least no hard stuff during the singing

[foq1978]

Originally Posted by pharmakon

I tend NOT to write intricate lines if I know I'm singing! And I like to sing my own songs. At least no hard stuff during the singing

That happened to me once - I wrote a melody over a bassline, so when the bassline was complicated, the vocal melody was not, and vice versa. I didn't like the result so much, so I'm transferring the lyrics to another song.

In fact, that was the case that made me post here asking for help.

[MalcolmAmos]

My approach gets the big picture first then in the fleshing out process I tweak the bass line, melody line and rhythm. Here is what I do - for what that is worth.

Story first, with out the story no reason for the song.
Story into lyric form. I'll tie melody to lyric words later.
Verse structure, 4 line or not, rhyme or not.
It will be a Country song so I'll use a Cookie Cutter chord progression (I IV V I) in the first two lines of the verse - repeated in the next two lines. This gives me the rest, tension, climax, resolution and return to rest the verse takes. I can get fancy in the fleshing out process, right now I'm working on structure and tying the climax chord (V7) to the climax lyric word. Getting the words to flow with the chord progression I've chosen. I've already picked a key, Which one depends on the vocalist that will be singing the song. If it's me I go D major. Here its a lot of strumming and humming - on the ole acoustic guitar - to find the right lyric, chord flow. Sorry, I can not imagine writing a song on the bass.

Melody - one melody note to each lyric word. Of course two syllable words take two melody notes. I use pentatonic scales to gather my melody notes (3 chord tones and 2 safe passing notes). Here I go to the keyboard and say the word and try each note of the pentatonic - the note that sounds best and fits the flow is the one I write down. It's here that the melody may dictate the movement and or addition of chords - to obtain harmonization. I'm conscious of pauses and I want the standard notation to have a wave action when you look at it on the sheet music. Straight line, boring, 20 foot swells too much. Three to four foot waves, with a few whitecaps, seem to work just right.

That gets a first draft. Fleshing out starts from that. Must say I've never gotten around to writing the bass clef, lead sheet is as far as I've ever taken it. Bass line is left to the bassist.

My two cents.....

[ColinGWood]

Originally Posted by St Drogo

there is no one routine formulaic way that always works. Unless you want to make routine formulaic music (make no mistake, there's serious money there. But it will cost you one (1) soul.)

[foq1978]

Hello Malcolm,

Wow, that's quite a system you have!

The interesting part (for me, at least), is that you use a system similar to mine (except for never writing basslines first, which is wise from you) - however, it seems to work for you to write the lyrics first, write the chords second and write the melody last. i am still having trouble making things fit.

It's good that you use the keyboard for the moelody part - I wish I had one near me, it's much more intuitive (and I've learned the piano for a couple of years, when I was young).

Hey, that was a great input from you. Thank you so much for that!

Take care!

[St Drogo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

My approach gets the big picture first then in the fleshing out process I tweak the bass line, melody line and rhythm. Here is what I do - for what that is worth.

Story first, with out the story no reason for the song.
Story into lyric form. I'll tie melody to lyric words later.
Verse structure, 4 line or not, rhyme or not.
It will be a Country song so I'll use a Cookie Cutter chord progression (I IV V I) in the first two lines of the verse - repeated in the next two lines. This gives me the rest, tension, climax, resolution and return to rest the verse takes. I can get fancy in the fleshing out process, right now I'm working on structure and tying the climax chord (V7) to the climax lyric word. Getting the words to flow with the chord progression I've chosen. I've already picked a key, Which one depends on the vocalist that will be singing the song. If it's me I go D major. Here its a lot of strumming and humming - on the ole acoustic guitar - to find the right lyric, chord flow. Sorry, I can not imagine writing a song on the bass.

Melody - one melody note to each lyric word. Of course two syllable words take two melody notes. I use pentatonic scales to gather my melody notes (3 chord tones and 2 safe passing notes). Here I go to the keyboard and say the word and try each note of the pentatonic - the note that sounds best and fits the flow is the one I write down. It's here that the melody may dictate the movement and or addition of chords - to obtain harmonization. I'm conscious of pauses and I want the standard notation to have a wave action when you look at it on the sheet music. Straight line, boring, 20 foot swells too much. Three to four foot waves, with a few whitecaps, seem to work just right.

That gets a first draft. Fleshing out starts from that. Must say I've never gotten around to writing the bass clef, lead sheet is as far as I've ever taken it. Bass line is left to the bassist.

My two cents.....

If I may comment on this;

I tried to come up with a system like this too some time ago (actually remarkably similar to yours), but though it worked in theory and seemed logically the best way to reliably and consistently write songs, I found (for me personally at least) that it doesn't really work. The point about making music, is you can do whatever you damn well please. That goes for all art. The moment art loses freedom in some sense, like getting "caught" in a standardized workflow, it isn't art anymore. it would be a cheap, bastardised shadow of what it's supposed to be. Like a the way a woman is portrayed in porn. And like that woman it can still be enjoyed as long as you know that it can't hold a candle to the real thing. I feel you'd somehow feel the insincerity and fakeness behind it.

This is the same reason there can be, in my eyes, absolutely no censorship in art. Humans run the gamut (hardihar har) from evil and grotesque, to beautiful and warm, and therefore art must too.

Now, Im not trying to bring a kind of lofty hauty-tauty arrogance to art, but in my eyes art is, above all, sincere. A part of the soul of the artist. A part of what it means to be human. More human than human actually, as mr. Zombie would say There's nothing wrong with being a commercial artist, if that is in fact what you want to be. As long as you realise that if you only make music according to a defined system, you are in fact not an artist, but a craftsman. You can be very good at your craft, know all the scales, know the emotional impact of those scales, be physically able to play challenging stuff and so on, but in the end you'd still be playing something defined by something else than you directly.

Of course, this is my take on the matters, you may (and most probably would) disagree. Let's have it

[MalcolmAmos]

I agree there is no set, or correct way. The one that fits you is the one you should use. There are roughly four personality types - very few of us just have one dominant trait we all seem to have a mixture of those four. I find that mixture to be very interesting. If we were all driven by just one of the four it would be a very predictable and boring World.

What's your mixture?

[foq1978]

I agree on how we don't need to (or even shouldn't) make songwriting something formulaic. However, systems as the ones we are discussing could actually benefit creativity. For instance, song structures as the ones used by Malcom Amos are not more or less formulaic than chord structures themselves (or perhaps they are, but that's open to discussion).

Of course I love the sense freedom that music (or art) can give us, while making it. But sometimes (not necessarily all the time) it's good to start with some kind of structure, even if just to subvert it, making it something completely different.

But hey, I'm the one having trouble with songrwriting.

Take care!

[St Drogo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

I agree there is no set, or correct way. The one that fits you is the one you should use. There are roughly four personality types - very few of us just have one dominant trait we all seem to have a mixture of those four. I find that mixture to be very interesting. If we were all driven by just one of the four it would be a very predictable and boring World.

What's your mixture?

Interesting! Is that a theory by some psychologist or something? Could you elaborate on this maybe?

[guroove]

I don't think there's any wrong or right way to do it, but I would try to think of a melody first because the melody is the song. The reason I say this is because chances are if you are writing a bass line first, you probably subconciously already have written a chord structure. Also, if you are like me, the chord structure might already be something that already exists. So really, when you are 'writing' a bass line, you're just playing bass. I could be talking out my ass because this is the problem I encounter when I write songs the same way you describe.

[rosanne]

I write songs all kinds of ways: bass line first, melody first, chords first, heard in a dream, and lyrics first. The easiest way "for me" is lyrics first.

After I have at least a couple of verses and the chorus, I start reciting the verses until I get a rhythm. Then I can get the melody that will go with that rhythm, and after that I write the bass line and figure out what chords to give the band for the song.

[MalcolmAmos]

Originally Posted by St Drogo

Interesting! Is that a theory by some psychologist or something? Could you elaborate on this maybe?

Psychology 101. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...traits&spell=1

[St Drogo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

Psychology 101. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&r...traits&spell=1

Well, that googlesearch you linked (very helpful, thanks ) got me two types of results. That myers briggs thing and that ancient thing where they categorise temperaments according to fluidlevel in their body (like bile and phlegm and such). I take it you meant the first one, as the second one has long been discredited as voodoo hocus pocus. Right?

[MalcolmAmos]

Myers Briggs and Keirsey are what I would call the standards. They all pretty much say the same thing just have different names - parrot, hawk, owl, sparrow -- talker, doer, controller, pacer. Two are people oriented and two are thing oriented. Two are fast paced and two are slow paced. Talker wants to be liked, hates conflict. Doer wants to be in charge, hates detail and is afraid of being taken advantage of. The Controller wants to be right, afraid of making a mistake. The Pacer wants to accommodate and hates change.

I'm a Controller with Talker traits. My controller has many files, charts and graphs, however, the talker in me can never find them. I'm also an introvert that likes to be around people, however, I draw strength from being alone, people wear me out. A true extrovert will draw strength from being around people being alone drives him bonkers.

Don't know anything about the voodo one - sounds like the study of Qigong, which does have merit.

[St Drogo]

Originally Posted by MalcolmAmos

basic Internet too much information.

Got that right. Do a harmless search for women who love horny goats to get way TMI.


What? I need someone to look after billy, my pet goat!



Anyhoople, I've been looking into the myers briggs system a few months ago, just out of interest and it seems logical and a valid theory, but with things like these I can never escape the feeling that it's missing the point of what it means to be human. I mean, if we can be categorized and captured totally simply by the seeing in howfar we have four simple traits, that somehow cheapens, well, life for me.

But I'm no psychoanalist by any stretch of the imagination and have therefore no idea in what context I should place these things. Still: interestink, bery bery interestink.

[MalcolmAmos]

In my past life I taught sales people how to sell.

I taught this to help them recognize what the prospect wanted, hated and was afraid of. Knowing that they were then able to zero in on what the prospect wanted and what assurances he would be looking for to be sure we were the people he wanted to do business with, i.e. how to build trust and relationships. Seems to work with family members, as well as business associates.