Sound and Stage Production as a business

[oniman7]

Hey all, don't ask how I got this idea in my head, but lately I've really been considering starting a business running sound and stage. Just so you know what to expect right away:

I'm 15 and go to school full time
I have been playing music for about a year and a half, have been interested in music/sound production for roughly 6 months
Have no income, but have parents willing to back me if I can prove to them that it's an actual interest and will do me good.
Etc.


Anyways, here's what I'm wondering. How does the business work? Before I committed to anything, I'd have to know a lot more about it, obviously.

My thinking is that I buy a PA system, some microphones, stands, extra instrument cables, etc. These are all things that my band needs and could use anyways if everything tanks. At the same time, I could easily set this up by myself. At first, I could just rent out the sound system ( and set up ) for speeches, presentations, parties, recitals, etc. until I get experience and maybe some money for more materials. Then, if I'm getting along well with it, I'd get the company registered and perhaps set up as an LLC with contracts drawn up to protect myself and my gear in all forms of liability. I'd eventually add more and varied speakers and microphones, and at some point, other stage props like lighting and fog machines.

What I want to know is:

Is it a viable business? What/where is the market for it?

What is decent to charge somebody, especially with such a limited set up?

What kinds of things should I expect?

What kind of snags should I expect?

What obvious things should I think of? What things should I keep in mind that aren't as obvious?

What is the bare minimum equipment that I should have?

What kind of return can I expect and how fast?

[lowend219]

big thing: getting enough gear together to have a professional rig gets expensive

Easiest way to find out I would think would be to see if you can get yourself hired for a local production company, you'll get a lot of 1st hand experience with the gear as well as the different situations you will be working in, from rock concerts to corporate events to weddings and bar mitzvahs. Plus you'll be getting payed while you figure out for yourself if its viable for you to do go into business on your own. If there is 1 thing in particular I can tell you to expect its this:

When the sound is going well hardly anyone notices. People's attention is on the speaker, band, DJ, or whatever and it should be. If you're doing your job well you should essentially be invisible. People only notice sound when something goes wrong. Then the client, the guests, the whoever will be up your ass looking for magical solutions to the problem (and they want it fixed NOW). And you can't please everyone, the client wants things louder and the guests want it quieter etc. Its just the nature of the business. The complements are few and far between while the criticism is always just one instance of mic feedback away. Just take a look around these forums and see how many of us bass players are always bashing the sound guy. This might just be coming off as bitter but its true, you've got to have tough skin to be a sound guy.

I'm not trying to dissuade you in any way, the gig's got a lot of upsides as well, especially if you get in with some good musicians, just though I'd share a few things from my experience.

[oniman7]

I figure that when I go to apply for colleges, it will be good t have on the resume, as long as the capability to run sound for my own band if I need to without having to pay a sound guy.

How would I find one of these local production companies? =p

[Ubersheist]

Here's my two cents, and mind you, it's from someone not in the business. Take it with a grain of salt, and if you get some good advice for someone who's running sound at Wembly Stadium, go with their advice not mine. However, I've been around alot, and keep my ear to the ground in the business.

First off, it's a TOUGH business. For the most part, there is no money in it. The only ones who make money in it are the ones who do very technical stuff for corporate events (like trade shows, sales conferences for large companies like Verizon or Google, multimedia tour presentations for guys like Tony Robbins, etc.) which is soul-less, and no one wants to do it. Then there are companies and/or crews that work on large music tours, touring plays or other events that tour, and in destination resorts like Vegas at shows. Also, the guys who run sound on cruise ships probably make a living at it, but they're not rich.

The guys who run sound at a local concert in the park don't make anything, and typically loose far more then they bring in. For them, it's a labor of love, not for profit. The guys running sound at smaller clubs are usually meathead bouncers who have no idea what they're doing, and the owner tosses him on the board because the last guy quit suddenly and the meathead plays guitar in a metal band. The guys who run sound on Aerosmith's tour or for the touring production of a play make a living at it, with only the foreman or manager making a good living at it.

There's a ton of competition out there from lots of guys who have it as a hobby, and have a bunch of equipment in their garage.

Unfortunately, none of them really know what they're doing. A good soundman is worth his weight in gold. 99% are not, and the general public doesn't know that. They just hire whomever will give them the best rates.

They really never know how to properly set up a gain structure, run frequency sweeps, and a ton of other very basic and simple things. Forget it if you want to run a sidechain from the kick to a compressor or anything else that's still on the more basic side. There really is an art and science to running sound.

There's three basic things that you'll need:

1. Knowledge
2. Contacts
3. Business smarts

I really don't know how you can get any of those on your own. I'd really suggest taking some courses at a community college if you can or maybe at a trade school like Pinnacle or Xpressions, and (most importantly) interning at a real sound production company. There will be no money in it at first, but if you prove that you can pull your weight, have a good aptitude for it, and be professional (be detail oriented with your work, always show up on time, never loose your cool, etc.), you will find work that pays in it. Actually, that's a good formula for work in any industry. Interning and working at the company will get you contacts that you can use later.

Also, take a few business and management courses. If you want to make money running sound, you'll need a crew, and you'll need to know how to manage them. Also, if you don't know how to run a business, then you're screwed from the start. You mentioned a few things that makes me think you've got your head on good with that so far.

You can buy a system and start running sound on the side if you can or want, but it'll almost certainly be at a loss for a long while until you really know what you're doing, and/or have good contacts that will get you good gigs. Also, who knows? It might take off, and all the stuff I said above will be totally invalid. Probably not, though.

I'd really suggest working for someone else for a while until you really know what you're doing, and then striking out on your own. If you're good, you can intern a couple or a few days a week and then start working and getting paid something within a year pretty easy. If you're crazy idiot-savant good, within a few years you may be able to strike out on your own, or borrow money and buy someone out. More then likely, you'll need to work an absolute minimum of 7-8 years before going out on your own, probably even longer.

[Ubersheist]

Originally Posted by oniman7

How would I find one of these local production companies? =p

Google and phone calls. Call up the local concert venues and see who they use.

The chances are good that they use the trade union (can't remember who they are). Find the union people, and ask them how to get in the union. Usually, you have to be invited. That means making friends first, and they'll probably want some certification from you from a sound engineering trade school. Then, you're typically put on a call list for when they need people. You'll wait a while until you get one or two jobs, and then you'd better shine on them.

They pay pretty well, but they're hard work with long hours, and often you'll be out of town for long periods of time. Once you're in, you're in, though. I've got a friend who is rockin' good at sound and setting up computer networks for events and concerts. He gets paid pretty well - $200 to $500 a day, I suspect. He travels like crazy, and will have a week or two in Turkey at an event later this year. He stays in some sweet hotels most of the time, and can have alot of downtime, too, where he's sitting at the pool at the 5-star hotel on call while the event is going on. It's usually physically very demanding, and tough on the girlfriend, though.

[jive1]

My advice for any new business venture. To make the most of what you spend on gear and equipment, spend on obtaining knowledge and skills first. Spending doesn't include only money, but time and energy as well.

[oniman7]

I'll try that. I was hoping to stay local.

My plan for now was to market like crazy, person-to-person, and advertise myself to everybody I can, and perhaps pick up some money from small events around the town.

Obviously I'd take a class first. I want to go to school for music engineering or something similar, so I'd take classes such as this.

[D.A.R.K.]

Go to yer local sound company and ask all this.
Markets depend on location.
Expect long hours and little return for the first few years, like any other business.
Think about this:
For rock gigs, to put out a reasonable system for 250 bucks a night you need 15 grand worth or gear.
Go corporate if you want to make money.

[Hoover]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

Go corporate if you want to make money.

^^^This. I've been a professional audio engineer since 1975, and I made more money in one year providing sound reinforcement for corporate conferences & tradeshows than I have over my entire career mixing FOH for rock bands!


[edit: okay, wait, that's not really true. But it's close!]

[D.A.R.K.]

Hoover, were you my foh tech at the gobi stage at coachella on Sunday?
The rat Hoover?

[oniman7]

What is the average yearly for sound setup? What kinds of different fields are there? Obviously setting up a club is different than running sound and microphones for a TV station, or any of the other things you could do. Are these different fields, or would somebody trained in one of these generally do others?

[Dirk Diggler]

Wow where do we start here.......

Just having gear doesn't make you a sound guy, and usually experience is another very useful trait for a sound guy.
How are your ears?

Also how do you even know what to buy? Any salesman will tell you what they need to sell you, but it might not be what you really need, and yes it's not a cheap investment.

The big thing that you gain by doing this over time is dealing with emergency problems, sudden feedback, broken gear.
Do you understand electricity and electronics? How about acoustics?

Good luck,
Dirk

[oniman7]

Let's forget about me trying to do this on my own and just work with the idea of me doing it at some point in the future. As I said, I've not been playing a while, but I try to learn something new about it as often as I can, and I've been learning the ways of set up, mixing, all of that. I like it and could see (with training, obviously) doing it as a living.

My ear for mixing and EQ settings is good (pitch definitely needs some work) and I'm learning currently about electronics.

[MonkeyBass]

Firstly... as stated, you need to be trained.

Now let me give you another side of this whole thing.

I am a freelance audio engineer. I've done corporate events, theater, bands, festivals. I've worked weddings, bar mitzvahs, birthday parties. I've loaded huge road cases through tiny hallways, with no elevator, over cobble stones, up steep hills. I've done rooms the size of coffee houses to full blown high-end recording studios.

My advise... choose another career.

If you really want to try it though. Try to get a job somewhere before you dump a bunch of your parent's money into a business. Work for someone else to see if you like it and to learn the trade. There's a lot to it! Do you know what lighting gels are? Do you know the color schemes? Could you grab a med or fed if someone asked for one? How many watts do you need for the room you're in? Do you need delay towers? How do you figure out the math for the delay towers?

You won't make it back for a LOOOONNNNGGGG time. The amount of gear you need, coupled with the wear and tear, and coupled (tripled?) with the fact that nobody wants to pay you what's fair for your services, means you won't make any real money for a long time, if at all. Plus you need insurance, a truck, a crew, storage etc etc...

Another thing to remember, is with gig you're not just sitting there listening to music all day. There's a HUGE amount of manual labor. Who do you think sets up the outdoor stages, lighting rigs, speaker arrays etc...?

Typical day as a freelancer in NYC: Wake up at 4 AM. Hop on the subway to get to the job at 5. Unload the truck(s), work on the staging, rigging, etc until 6 or 7 PM. Leave for lunch. Run the show until 10 or 11 PM. Take the staging and rigging down, pack it all up and load it in the truck. Get home around 2 AM... Wake up at 4 the next morning... no, this is not an exaggeration.

It's a really really tough business. There's a reason that most of us in the business are grouchy and smoke too much.

But it's better than working in an office any day.

But good luck. Follow your heart.

[MonkeyBass]

I'm stuck in a sound booth at a theater as we speak and I've decided I'd rather vent then pay attention to this show.

Let me answer these as best I can.

Is it a viable business? What/where is the market for it? - Yes, you can make money if you don't ever want to sleep or have a social life.

What is decent to charge somebody, especially with such a limited set up? - Depends on the gig. You need to negotiate. How much gear is needed? Will you need to hire crew? Are you bringing lighting (which is another good way to make money)? What's the load in like? etc... Big corporate events can make HUGE money... but the gigs suck. Also corporate gigs usually want one company to do lights, sound, and video. So... do you know all of those? Do you have equipment for those?



What kinds of things should I expect? - Expect anything at any time. Can you solder a DI box back together? Can you reglue a speaker cone? Can you ring a room (do you even know what that is?), can you prevent cross-talk on your wireless mics? Can you argue with club owners? Can you convince the cops you're not over 100 dB?

What kind of snags should I expect? - See above.


What obvious things should I think of? What things should I keep in mind that aren't as obvious? - Not an easy question to answer. You need to be trained. There are too many "engineers" that don't know a speaker cable from an instrument cable. The main difference between a pro and an amateur is the ability to trouble shoot and fix it when it all goes horribly wrong.


What is the bare minimum equipment that I should have? - You got 30 Grand? Think about it. You need a 24 channel board, 24 channel snake, mics for drums, vocals, guitar amps... or the full mariachi, or choir or... whatever shows up. You need subs, mains, monitors, amps for all of them, crossovers, compressors, reverbs, road cases, a van/truck, a tool kit for your testing/maintenance gear, mic stands, speaker stands, staging... it's a HUGE upfront investment.

What kind of return can I expect and how fast? - If you never sleep... you may make some money back someday.

[oniman7]

Just so all of you don't think I'm running out to start some business, this is just my typical thinking style. I get really obsessed with ideas over a short period of time, and then I end up thinking better of them and they give way to better thought out ideas. Still, I'd like to hear what some (other) people in the field have to say about it. It'll be interesting to hear.

[crijan]

Check out the LAB and LAB Lounge at ProSoundWeb and search around their forums for advice from people in the business.

[oniman7]

Thanks. I'll check that out.

[coreyfyfe]

Originally Posted by Ubersheist

First off, it's a TOUGH business. For the most part, there is no money in it. The only ones who make money in it are the ones who do very technical stuff for corporate events (like trade shows, sales conferences for large companies like Verizon or Google, multimedia tour presentations for guys like Tony Robbins, etc.) which is soul-less, and no one wants to do it. Then there are companies and/or crews that work on large music tours, touring plays or other events that tour, and in destination resorts like Vegas at shows. Also, the guys who run sound on cruise ships probably make a living at it, but they're not rich.

+1 to this. I have a friend whose dad does pro sound. He's been doing it since the 70s and has done well with it, but most of his work is corporate/event deals. When he needs a big crew he used to farm help from his daughter's friends so I did a few jobs for him while I was in college. The biggest one was a large event at a convention center. Aside from running the PA system, they were also doing translator headsets - the event was being translated in english, spanish, and portuguese - and it was our job (I think like 8 of us) to set up, hand out, and help people use the headsets. His main crew set up the speakers, mics, translator booths, rack gear, projectors, screens, etc.

Soooooo much equipment that has to go into these kinds of things, and if you don't own it, you're renting it.

[Rockmusician]

I don't want to discourage you but it is a difficult business. It will be especially difficult due to your age. Musicians want to hire someone with a lot of experience. Gear will be very expensive, plus you will need transportation and insurance. My advice is to find a local sound company and ask if you can work for them, even if it's as an unpaid intern. You will gain valuable experience that you can use when you start you own company.