Sub players - do any of you have them?

[tZer]

My band's live configuration is:

• 2 guitars+vocalists
• drummer
• bass (me)

And we play pretty regularily (just about every weekend - sometimes both nights).

We have subs for the guitar players and the drummer but none for me. This means I have to be available for all gigs and if new ones pop up unexpectedly, it can rest on my shoulders as to whether or not we can do them.

In the last year, I have never said, "NO" to a gig and that is getting old. I don't want to be the 'a-hole' who blows an opportunity for whatever reason. Plus my wife is getting a bit tired of the gig schedule and wants me to back off a little.

So, I am wondering how many of you regular giggers out there have a person who can fill in for you if you need a gig off?

And what is it like for you? Does it work out well? Is there a weird, competitive thing? Do tell...

--tz

[baba]

I use a sub when needed. There isn't a regular person per se. It has worked out fine.

On the flip side, I sub for other bands much more often. It has always been fun and worked out well.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by baba

I use a sub when needed. There isn't a regular person per se. It has worked out fine.

On the flip side, I sub for other bands much more often. It has always been fun and worked out well.

That is good news. Our 'fearless leader' thinks that the bass player sub can't just be some dude we call on 'as needed' but that he needs to be given a regular rotation - so technically, he is not a 'sub' he is 'the other bass player' and he plays half the gigs. Our leader says,

"The bass player needs to be so rock solid and I can't take a chance on them not being able to hold the groove."

Funny how he does not have a similar concern with our drummer subs. He actually has one guy sub with us who I have to literally baby-sit through the entire set! "Slower... slower... too slow! Ok, get ready to cut... now! Ok, here is the end... 1, 2, 3, 4...."
And yet, he thinks that works out just fine... Hmmm....

[Lazylion]

Originally Posted by tZer

Our leader says, "The bass player needs to be so rock solid and I can't take a chance on them not being able to hold the groove."

Ya can't really blame him there, can you.

Originally Posted by tZer

He actually has one guy sub with us who I have to literally baby-sit through the entire set! "Slower... slower... too slow! Ok, get ready to cut... now! Ok, here is the end... 1, 2, 3, 4...."
And yet, he thinks that works out just fine... Hmmm....

Of course, because YOU are doing all the work!

Originally Posted by tZer

my wife is getting a bit tired of the gig schedule and wants me to back off a little.

I am shocked, SHOCKED to hear of such a thing!!

Our band has a sub for me, but he doesn't get a lot of use. I've never met him. Evidently he's good enough for them to use, but they are always very flattering to me at my next gig afterwards.
We will be using a sub drummer for the next month while our regular guy takes his yearly vacation in Italy. This Saturday is his first gig with us. We'll be playing at a big campground near Front Royal VA, crowd estimate 600 - 1000 people. I hope he doesn't suck! Yours truly will be cueing him throughout the show.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by Lazylion

Our band has a sub for me, but he doesn't get a lot of use. I've never met him. Evidently he's good enough for them to use, but they are always very flattering to me at my next gig afterwards.
We will be using a sub drummer for the next month while our regular guy takes his yearly vacation in Italy. This Saturday is his first gig with us. We'll be playing at a big campground near Front Royal VA, crowd estimate 600 - 1000 people. I hope he doesn't suck! Yours truly will be cueing him throughout the show.

Wow! Killer gig! Good luck to you and the sub!

And yes, your points are well taken. I tend to take my role seriously (even though I look and act like I don't have a care in the world while doing it) and therefore become pretty useful to the band. It is flattering that the role seems to require a 'special situation' - But getting him on the stick to get a sub is going to be a trick. I have offered to take the lead on that task - but his 'alpha role' won't allow him to 'give up any responsibility'. So it appears he is hoping I will forget that I need a sub altogether.

Good luck again on the big gig! That sounds like a real blast!

--tz

[zac2944]

I play in a 14 piece band so there is often someone who can't make a gig. We have many subs that we work with. We are using two subs for a gig this friday. Luckly for us there are many good "hired guns" in Boston and we are doing covers.

I have two guys that I use if I can't make it to a gig. They are both hired guns. Being a gun is a great way to make money. I sub for two original bands regularly, and I'm always picking up fill-in work from ads on Craig's List.

There is never anything wierd or uncomfrotable about using subs in my band. The band would always prefer I do the gigs, but using a sub is better than everyone missing out on a gig. They know that. They are all very good about helping out the subs on stage with changes, endings, intros, etc.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by tZer

So, I am wondering how many of you regular giggers out there have a person who can fill in for you if you need a gig off?

And what is it like for you? Does it work out well? Is there a weird, competitive thing? Do tell...

It's a complete necessity for me, and nearly every jazz group around here has a call list for bass subs.

Both of my current regular band situations started out with me being the sub.The guys I replaced are now my subs, and we all get along fine, although one guy seems to have a bit of a competitive streak. I'm hoping that'll go away as he gets to know me a little better, or maybe if I hook him with a few of the more sweet gigs. A Talkbasser took over from me in another band after subbing, and now I'm his sub. If you're going to be using subs a lot, either be very confident in your main man status, or be prepared for consequences at some point. Your guitar player has already laid this out though, from the sound of it.

The idea of a rotation isn't too bad IMHO. I regularly go play the last set at club gigs with another band I sub for, just to stay sharp. They've been ramping up the gigs they give me too, just in case they need me for a showcase sometime. I'm in a bit over my head, but the regular bassist and the rest of the band are very gracious, and they'd rather not have to call someone in Portland, which is 60 miles away. The fact that we all get along well personally works in my favor too, I'm sure.

FWIW, all these gigs are chart reading ones, which makes subbing immensely easier I think. I live in a small town too, and hang out with the other bassists anyway, so it's not really weird at all for me. I actually find that it keeps it fresher for all of us.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

If you're going to be using subs a lot, either be very confident in your main man status, or be prepared for consequences at some point. Your guitar player has already laid this out though, from the sound of it.

Oh yeah - I have no problem at all with this situation. My ego is not invested in this band. My musicianship is, my stage performance is, my ego... checked at the door. Now in my project bands where I pour a hell of a lot more of my heart and soul and personal creativity into what we do... there could be ego there - but those bands are not in need of subs at this time...

Originally Posted by Passinwind

The idea of a rotation isn't too bad IMHO.

I am on board with that too. My only stipulation is that I would like first choice of which or our regular gigs I get. We play in two locations that I would not want to lose - the rest of the list is up for grabs as far as I am concerned. I do think since I have served the time playing anything and everything without fail that this in not an unreasonable request.

Thanks for your input!

[baba]

Originally Posted by tZer

Our 'fearless leader' thinks that the bass player sub can't just be some dude we call on 'as needed' but that he needs to be given a regular rotation - so technically, he is not a 'sub' he is 'the other bass player' and he plays half the gigs. ....

This sounds suspect. Especially given the double standard with the drummer sub.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by baba

This sounds suspect. Especially given the double standard with the drummer sub.

That is how I fealt too - at first. But I think it is more of him saying that he is not into the idea of me going part time. He does not want to go through the hassle of trying to find subs he can count on. I mean it's gotta be nice when you have one player you don't need to worry about, right?

And he does have a point - if a bass player does have the chops to do the sub gig, he is probably playing with other bands. In order to know that he will be available, he would probably need to know when we would need him - hence we should give him a regular rotation. I think it does make sense. If I were in a position to be a sub and I was busy with other groups or my own group, I would need something I could put on a calendar too.

Bass players who have been 'in retirement' or just do it as a hobby probably are not going to be ready to step into a 4-set/50 song night.

[baba]

That makes sense if you're going part time. I guess it's a matter of exactly how many gigs you plan on missing - will it be a regular thing or a couple times a year. Either way, good luck.

[tZer]

Well, before all the discussion I was thinking that we just needed to explore our options in the event I could not play or needed a gig off - again, I did not want to be the lynch-pin in the 'we got a really good possible gig... can you make it?' game.

But now, the answer is a definitive, "YES- I want to go part time" . It is actaully necessary. My wife has been really patient with the spontaneous bunch of new gigs that have been thankfully coming our way - she has never asked me NOT to take one and has re-worked her life around them... That just has to stop.

[mcbassdude]

Anytime I see/hear a good bassist I get his digits. I have about 6+ players I can call on to do sub work for me. You gotta load up that rolodex/PDa with names of good players you can call on. I also give them my card as well. It's worked out well and I have had my ass saved and saved a few too.

[tZer]

Read above...

We do the standard rock 'n' roll bar set - music from the 70's, 80's, 90's and today - but mostly the rock of the 70's and 80's.

I can get you all the details you would need - even CD's of the songs to learn and all that jazz, er, rock...

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by tZer

Well, before all the discussion I was thinking that we just needed to explore our options in the event I could not play or needed a gig off - again, I did not want to be the lynch-pin in the 'we got a really good possible gig... can you make it?' game.

But now, the answer is a definitive, "YES- I want to go part time" . It is actaully necessary. My wife has been really patient with the spontaneous bunch of new gigs that have been thankfully coming our way - she has never asked me NOT to take one and has re-worked her life around them... That just has to stop.

That mirrors my situation too. My wife is ultra-supportive, but we have to look at my calendar a few months ahead to work out vacations and stuff like that. At least now I always have the option of calling in a sub.

I'm totally with you on getting first call on specific gigs. Since I do a lot of the booking, that kind of takes care of itself in my case.

One other point: I've learned a ton by watching other guys playing with 'my' bands. They all say the same thing too. Best of luck!

Bass players who have been 'in retirement' or just do it as a hobby probably are not going to be ready to step into a 4-set/50 song night.

Amen; finding the right sub is a whole other deal, for sure. I have 5 books from different bands here, and the smallest one is around 45 songs. Two are well over 200, but stuff gets called that I've never played, and I'm expected to solo fluently anyway. I still consider myself a hobby player, but my wife definitely sees it otherwise.

[pointbass]

Originally Posted by tZer

But now, the answer is a definitive, "YES- I want to go part time" . It is actaully necessary. My wife has been really patient with the spontaneous bunch of new gigs that have been thankfully coming our way - she has never asked me NOT to take one and has re-worked her life around them... That just has to stop.

I'm in exactly that boat, but really it's me that wants to slow things down even more than my wife ..... after 25 years together she has proven to be 10000% supportive of my music, but I'm starting to get really tired of the regular gigging/rehearsal stuff and she'd be pleased if I cut back on the schedule.

I have a few guys that could maybe step in for me, but the music is a little intense and outside of the normal "cover" style, mostly fusion stuff (Jeff Beck, Tribal Tech, Weather Report, etc) that you need to be very intimate with before just stepping in. Plus, as a trio, I double a lot of the guitar licks and do a fair amount of looping with a Boomerang, so it's definitely not a simple sub kind of thing.

I personally have stopped subbing for other guys, something that I've been doing for the past 5 years. I guess that the club-scene thing is just wearing me down ......

[P_bass]

This is really interesting, I live in St. Charles too...

[baba]

I feel ya tZer. We decided as a band to scale back the gigs a couple months ago. Now we do 1 to 3 gigs a month which is much easier with the family. Even 4 gigs a month is too much for me since they are always on weekends.

Kudos to you for being a good husband and father.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by P_bass

This is really interesting, I live in St. Charles too...

Step one has been taken...

If you are interested, PM me with your details and I will make sure you are on the list of people we are looking at.

We are just beginning this 'find another bass player' thing and I have a feeling that if I leave it up to the band leader, it will take more time then it has to. So I am tossing feelers out there left and right to at least get a list of possible candidates regardless of how he feels about that. When he says, "I need to find some people to audition" I want to hand him a list of names and numbers and say, "Let's get started".

He definitely takes the whole, "It's MY name on the band and MY reputation at stake" thing to heart and has a hard time letting anyone else 'drive' any part of the band. But I also think he won't put any action toward this project unless I push really hard.

[tZer]

Originally Posted by baba

I feel ya tZer. We decided as a band to scale back the gigs a couple months ago. Now we do 1 to 3 gigs a month which is much easier with the family. Even 4 gigs a month is too much for me since they are always on weekends.

Kudos to you for being a good husband and father.

Thanks man! It is good to know there are others out there who can relate so directly.

Our leader tends to speak outta both sides of his mouth. Now don't get me wrong here... He is a real stand-up guy, a killer guitar player and an excellent vocalist who takes his band very seriously - I don't mean to make him out to be a jerk or less then worthy of respect. But he will say things like, "Dude, we gotta book more gigs! I need to give Jim more playing time and Mike really wants more cash!" - Then he will say, "Dude, we can cut back on the gigs if you are feeling the pressure from home..."

I am just not sure which side of the mouth has the story right and I want to err on the side of not short-changing any members who really do want to up the ante.

Thanks again for your kind words!