From Sunday Times: "Revealed: how eBay sellers fix auctions"

avid · #1 01-27-2007, 08:19 PM

The London Times has done an undercover report about shill bidding on eBay. Here is the link to article.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspap...570050,00.html

I would be surprised if this doesn't start a big government investigation of the whole online auction business. The article specifically mentions how bidders names are now hidden. This fact was the subject of a recent thread form the Bass forum.

Quote:

Purchasing A Bass On Ebay Just Got Even Riskier

Pan · #2 01-27-2007, 08:33 PM

I've bought/sold about 30 items on eBay including 7-8 basses and a neck. Out of that lot and the auctions I lost out on I guess there were 2 occasions I felt suspicious about.
In one case there was no other bid but mine for a week but the day the auction ended there was just a single bidder against me. It doubled the auction price and a bargain turned into an average deal. I'll never know . . . .

Another incident was a Fender Jazz V in the US and I noticed the only 'other' bidder (who doubled the price on the last day) lived in the same state as the seller. I left that one alone.

I guess it's back to the golden rule that something's worth as much as someone is willing to pay.

Busker · #3 01-27-2007, 08:47 PM

They can investigate me all they want.

It would be better if the tilte said how "some" ebay sellers.... and I'll bet it's darn few.

Painting ALL ebay sellers with this broad brush is WRONG. Offer a decent item or product with a reasonable shipping cost, and there's no reason anyone should have to shill bid an auction. Period.

Busker · #4 01-27-2007, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pan

I've bought/sold about 30 items on eBay including 7-8 basses and a neck. Out of that lot and the auctions I lost out on I guess there were 2 occasions I felt suspicious about.
In one case there was no other bid but mine for a week but the day the auction ended there was just a single bidder against me. It doubled the auction price and a bargain turned into an average deal. I'll never know . . . .

Another incident was a Fender Jazz V in the US and I noticed the only 'other' bidder (who doubled the price on the last day) lived in the same state as the seller. I left that one alone.

I guess it's back to the golden rule that something's worth as much as someone is willing to pay.

Hey, people bid against you to try to win. If you're looking to get it for a steal, fine, but realize that plenty of people are looking and many will not bid until the last day, or last minute. If you get outbid at the last minute, you simply didn't bid high enough.

Soma666 · #5 01-27-2007, 09:36 PM

hehe, im one of those last minute bidders. wait long enough, and then hit hard with a big auto bid and ur chances are good to win

Jazzin' · #6 01-27-2007, 09:38 PM

I'm not surprised.

69nites · #7 01-27-2007, 09:49 PM

I won't place a bid until there's under 10 seconds left and I set my limit far before I ever place my bid

If someone "shills" it really doesn't effect me

zcwilkes · #8 01-27-2007, 10:03 PM

I wait until about an hour out before bidding and I check the bid history.

WJGreer · #9 01-27-2007, 10:16 PM

I almost never bid until the last few minutes or so either. If I do bid early and then am outbid, I will always wait until the final few seconds and place my highest bid. If I win, I'm happy. If I don't, there's no time left for me to inflate my own bid beyond what I told myself I was willing to pay.

Smallmouth_Bass · #10 01-27-2007, 11:46 PM

If sellers are not willing to part with their item for little money, why don't they just put reserve prices? I guess they give somewhat of an illusion that it is a good deal with no reserve.

Yeah, I put the late bids in as well. You get screwed over otherwise.

Kenny Allyn · #11 01-27-2007, 11:49 PM

I personally stopped a shill bidding scam recently ... actually called the consigner and told her I was cancelling the bids.

Lets see I'm a member of two chamber of commerce and the BBB and field questions from reporters all the time, and am in the process of working up some public seminars on Ebay ... and deal in 6 figure plus sales on occassion ... But your probably right ... we are all pretty bad scam artist.

... Best policy ... killem all and let God sort em out!

Blues Cat · #12 01-28-2007, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smallmouth_Bass

If sellers are not willing to part with their item for little money, why don't they just put reserve prices? I guess they give somewhat of an illusion that it is a good deal with no reserve.

Yeah, I put the late bids in as well. You get screwed over otherwise.

Having a reserve price increases the front end listing fee. It's way cheaper to start the bidding at $9.99 and have someone you know shill.

I sold a bass , my first Ebay sale, and zero feedback Falasiri123 goes and bids up to my reserve price a day and a half into a 7 day auction. He shoots me a message 12 hours before the end saying please cancel my bids I found a similar item at my local store. Total lie. I told him to stop bidding if he didn't want it.

People started to bid and he kept bidding, WTH. Someone out bid him at the last second.

So I have to wonder was it someone affiliated with Ebay?

I was confused and pissed at first but actually that bidder got me an extra $200+ for the item. Go figure.

bongomania · #13 01-28-2007, 12:55 AM

In what, eight years on Ebay and about 600 transactions, I have only seen one or two instances of what looked like shill bidding. Granted, there is all kinds of sheisty stuff on Ebay, but as Busker and Kenny pointed out, to tar all or most sellers with that brush is plain wrong.

In fact, the one fraudulent behavior I do see regularly is those zero-fdbk bidders with names like "zebner1765" or "Billly432" who place meaningless bids just to cause problems for sellers. Maybe some of them are clever scammers, but none of the ones that bid on my auctions are shilling for me, and none of them pay if they win, so I think they are just bored kids.

Busker · #14 01-28-2007, 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smallmouth_Bass

If sellers are not willing to part with their item for little money, why don't they just put reserve prices? I guess they give somewhat of an illusion that it is a good deal with no reserve.

Yeah, I put the late bids in as well. You get screwed over otherwise.

Bidders do not like auctions with reserves. That's the way it is. If I have to, I'll start an auction at the minimum price I will sell for. Most of the time it works, sometimes not, but at least it avoids having a reserve on the auction.

Starting an auction low is one way for a seller to end up with a nice selling price, if you have the nerve to start low with no reserve. I once sold a vintage Gibson bass this way. A circa 1968 EB2 (I think they call it an EB2) - one of those that looks like an ES-335 guitar. Started it at a penny, no reserve. It had almost 30 bids and sold for over $1300.00. As a seller, I knew that a bidder wasn't going to let the next guy get that bass for only a penny, or $600, or whatever the bid was at the moment. But if it would have sold for only $600 I would have shipped it out just the same, crying all the way to the Post Office.

Screwed over how? By other people willing to pay more than you?

bal704 · #15 01-28-2007, 06:47 AM

I'm not totally opposed to the private bidding process. Lately, I've placed some bids on guitars going for more than $1000. EVERY time, I got a 'second chance' offer. Some were bad fakes, others were good fakes, but they were all bogus.

If there's a better way to keep bidder info private to prevent bogus second chance offers, I say let's do it. Otherwise, we may have to live with private bidding.

basss · #16 01-28-2007, 07:06 AM

The only way to prove that shill bidding has taken place would be to not only prove that the bidder knows the seller but that they have made a deal to shill bid which would be pretty much impossible. You would have to have a record of the colusion or one would have to rat the other out.

The fact that someone buys multiple items and bids many times on those items doesn't prove anything. I don't know how you could police this.

Brass Nut · #17 01-28-2007, 07:21 AM

Generally I'll make bid at the last minute myself. Especially like the 3-4:00 a.m. weekday bidding. Seems things are more expensive on weekends with all the folks watching.
Another way I like to go is the "Buy Now" with "Newly Posted". It's a nice way to get a fair deal before someone else scoffs it up (as long as you know what you're looking at).
I have been caught in what I've felt was a scam from time to time. I'm just more cautious now.
But sometimes you really can make out too;
Last year I bought a "Buy Now" with the line "Must sell immediately for money, '72 Fender Jazz. $150 with free shipping." it was a 1 day posting and I jumped on it!
2 days before the brown mule delivered it I get this message that They wanted to buy it back!
Seems the owner's wife was P.O.ed at her husband and sold a bunch of his things when she threw him out of the house for a week for rent money or something.
I felt for the guy, kept the Jazz, and suggested he not pis$ his wife off anymore.
I found it interesting that it also came wrapped using his shirts as padding! (and they fit me!)
Now, is that hard or what?

Kenny Allyn · #18 01-28-2007, 07:24 AM

I agree totally with starting the bidding with a very small opening bid ... for me it's usually .99 ... this works very well for a known and sought after item the EB-2 is a good example.

You have to use reserve sometimes, it should usually be as low as the consigner can stand.

Private bidding is a must on high profile and rare items ...

...Non paying bidders are a much bigger problem than most people realize.

chuckee · #19 01-28-2007, 07:35 AM

Considering the sheer volume of items offered and sold on ebay, any thinking person has to realize the CERTAINTY that some collusion has to occur. I believe that virtually all of us who have used ebay for purchasing have had suspicions of scams and collusion.

I have been fortunate in buying over 30 items to include a great EBMM Stingray, an American Precision and a Jazz, a super Fender Stratocaster, and several trumpets ... all at decent prices. I attribute my satisfaction to experience and the ability to research sellers and buyers under the old system.

I don't think ebay has done a decent job of protecting or supporting buyers simply because of their non-response to questions I have asked about certain tactics of second chance offers and non responses of tardy shippers.

Busker · #20 01-28-2007, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckee

Considering the sheer volume of items offered and sold on ebay, any thinking person has to realize the CERTAINTY that some collusion has to occur. I believe that virtually all of us who have used ebay for purchasing have had suspicions of scams and collusion.

I have been fortunate in buying over 30 items to include a great EBMM Stingray, an American Precision and a Jazz, a super Fender Stratocaster, and several trumpets ... all at decent prices. I attribute my satisfaction to experience and the ability to research sellers and buyers under the old system.

I don't think ebay has done a decent job of protecting or supporting buyers simply because of their non-response to questions I have asked about certain tactics of second chance offers and non responses of tardy shippers.

Don't you think the sellers that sold you those instruments should get at least a little credit for your satisfaction?