The tension between Jeff Berlin and Wooten & Bailey?!

[Clef_de_fa]

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

American musicians are among the best musicians in the world. Start listing all the finest musicians you've ever heard of, and see how many are American. Sure, you can talk about people like Fieldy and Axl Rose, but just start with bassists. Nobody's saying there aren't great musicians elsewhere in the world, but most of the greats are American. I'm not necessarily talking about rock here. I'm including all genres, including classical.

well ... sure in the classical and in most extrem jazz idiom there some good name but in rock ... because they reach rock star level we listen to what they have to say otherwise they are a bunch of very bad musician. And we could be surprise at how good musician are everywhere in the world. For classical music, there is a lot more better name in Europe or Japan, they have a longer history of classical music. For jazz ... most of the American and Canadian musician spend most of their time in Europe because they are more open to it and I'm sure there is a lot more good musician than you think. USA is really about USA and doesn't let influances from others countries that much.

Also ... i never get why so many people say to listen and transcribe music ... I know that transcribing help to developpe your ear but the pretext people use is more about knowing what someone else do over a particular chord etc.

I mean, if you know how harmony works, all you really need is a little imagination. Not what Joe Blow did over that chord in that particular song and you steal that lick to reuse because you don't know better.

I don't think a guy like John Patitucci is like ... yeah what this dude do over that C7 chords is nice I have to steal it !!! No ! He has way more knowledge of music and create way more interesting thing than the same cr*p that people buy and call music.

[Tampabass]

wow, a four-year thread/arguefest is back from the dead. Hold on -- I'm getting my popcorn.

[Kenner]

lol....

[Southside Pip]

Even though there are bassists out there that can read something once and nail it for a recording, I just can't understand what markings on paper have to do with audio of any kind.

Couldn't they just replace the notation with letters as notes, anyway?

Other than that, I tend to listen to what all 3 bass legends have to say.

[FlatFive]

I think this sums it up...

At a clinic I attended he went into his "metronomes are useless" tirade. So I said, "they're a reference -- what's wrong with that?"

He responded by saying that a reference wasn't necessary and to demonstrate his belief he had someone come up to show that "ANYONE" can play in time. So he picked some guy who was a beginner to prove his point.

After about 3 measures the guy started rushing and Jeff began snapping his fingers to keep him in time -- to which I replied; "THAT'S A REFERENCE!!!"

Having said that, I think he's not only technically brilliant but a great artist as well. He just does not articulate himself very well at times.

[Munjibunga]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

well ... sure in the classical and in most extrem jazz idiom there some good name but in rock ... because they reach rock star level we listen to what they have to say otherwise they are a bunch of very bad musician. And we could be surprise at how good musician are everywhere in the world. For classical music, there is a lot more better name in Europe or Japan, they have a longer history of classical music. For jazz ... most of the American and Canadian musician spend most of their time in Europe because they are more open to it and I'm sure there is a lot more good musician than you think. USA is really about USA and doesn't let influances from others countries that much.

Also ... i never get why so many people say to listen and transcribe music ... I know that transcribing help to developpe your ear but the pretext people use is more about knowing what someone else do over a particular chord etc.

I mean, if you know how harmony works, all you really need is a little imagination. Not what Joe Blow did over that chord in that particular song and you steal that lick to reuse because you don't know better.

I don't think a guy like John Patitucci is like ... yeah what this dude do over that C7 chords is nice I have to steal it !!! No ! He has way more knowledge of music and create way more interesting thing than the same cr*p that people buy and call music.

You don't think Patitucci lifts stuff from other musicians? Every musician does it.

[atomicdog]

Sounds like an epidemic of insecurity going around among the teachers.

[two fingers]

Here are a couple of things to ponder.

1st - I went to Victor's camp. Not only did I go, but I had a tendency to stay up later than most and hang out with Vic and Steve and some others (not saying we are buddies, only that we got to talk some). He told me point blank that the last thing he wants is a bunch of Vics running around trying to be him, sound like him, act like him, or even smell like him. So when Vic offers knowledge, it is meant to be more of an overreaching generalization and not meant to get you to play like him.

2nd - Jeff can go suck an egg. First of all, maybe there are thousands and thousands of people in this country who just want to play for fun. They have no interest in studying, learning a great deal of theory, pounding away at endless permutations and other boring finger exercises (which is what most of Jeff's music sounds like to me anyway), or in any other way put their noses to the grindstone when it comes to making music. Tips and tricks offered by Vic, Steve and any number of youtube stars offer a shortcut to get where some players want to go. And I, for one, think that is AWESOME! You don't have to be a great player. You don't even have to know the notes on the fretboard! (One of the best guitarists I ever played with didn't know a single note on the fret board. When someone said "We're in E" I would put my finger on ANY E and he would just play the song like he wrote it. I could put my finger on a G and he could play the same song in different positions, again, like he wrote it...... all by ear.)

Short version. Screw you Jeff. Who are you to tell someone else how to TEACH, LEARN, or even PLAY? Some players out there are just having fun (something you wouldn't know if it bit you on the.........)

[LiquidMidnight]

I saw this thread and thought it was a new Berlin controversy. I am disappoint.

[FilterFunk]

Originally Posted by two fingers

Jeff can go suck an egg. First of all, maybe there are thousands and thousands of people in this country who just want to play for fun. They have no interest in studying, learning a great deal of theory, pounding away at endless permutations and other boring finger exercises (which is what most of Jeff's music sounds like to me anyway), or in any other way put their noses to the grindstone when it comes to making music... You don't have to be a great player.

Very well put. And didn't jazz, rock 'n' roll, soul, R&B, funk, etc., all originate in America? You're welcome, Jeff. Besides, who's to say what a "great player" is, anyway? Some of the most technically proficient players I've ever heard were also some of most boring and groove-impaired players I've ever heard.

[NeckthruTony]

Could Jeff Berlin's teaching of natural timing simply be a subconcious ego boost for better personal(student) timing?

[Tupac]

Originally Posted by LiquidMidnight

I saw this thread and thought it was a new Berlin controversy. I am disappoint.

Me too . Who, and why, bumped this?

[TolerancEJ]

Originally Posted by Tampabass

wow, a four-year thread/arguefest is back from the dead. Hold on -- I'm getting my popcorn.

Haha! +1 I wonder who will result in a TB ban this time. (J/K) TB'ers, remain calm and collected during your debate points.

[Tupac]

Originally Posted by FlatFive

I think this sums it up...

At a clinic I attended he went into his "metronomes are useless" tirade. So I said, "they're a reference -- what's wrong with that?"

He responded by saying that a reference wasn't necessary and to demonstrate his belief he had someone come up to show that "ANYONE" can play in time. So he picked some guy who was a beginner to prove his point.

After about 3 measures the guy started rushing and Jeff began snapping his fingers to keep him in time -- to which I replied; "THAT'S A REFERENCE!!!"

Having said that, I think he's not only technically brilliant but a great artist as well. He just does not articulate himself very well at times.

Hah! What did he say to that?

[shwashwa]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

I don't think a guy like John Patitucci is like ... yeah what this dude do over that C7 chords is nice I have to steal it !!! No ! He has way more knowledge of music and create way more interesting thing than the same cr*p that people buy and call music.

patitucci has transcribed extensively and recommends it to his students very often. although i dont think what he transcribed is the crap that you refer to above (unless you consider guys like dexter gordon, brecker, wes, pettiford and ray crap.)

[bass12]

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

Also ... i never get why so many people say to listen and transcribe music ... I know that transcribing help to developpe your ear but the pretext people use is more about knowing what someone else do over a particular chord etc.

Because jazz, just like any other style of music, has a vocabulary. Part of how a person develops that vocabulary is by listening and transcribing. And when you hear particular flavours it can be very helpful to analyze what a player did to achieve the effect in question. It's not about being unimaginative, it's about understanding the music you're playing and part of that understanding comes with knowing the history and vocabulary.

Originally Posted by Clef_de_fa

I don't think a guy like John Patitucci is like ... yeah what this dude do over that C7 chords is nice I have to steal it !!! No ! He has way more knowledge of music and create way more interesting thing than the same cr*p that people buy and call music.

"Steal"? Maybe not. Be influenced by/learn from? Absolutely. Patitucci wouldn't have the knowledge he does if he hadn't analyzed the work of the greats who came before him.

[inthevelvet]

Originally Posted by 14736251

Jeff doesn’t B.S. or fluff on any point, a very smart guy with a valiant work ethic; most people are just not up to his standards musically....

Thing is at the end of the day, his music, while complex, fails to really move me. And I'd venture to say Vic Wooten is just as smart and has just as good a work ethic....and a good deal more class as a person.

[inthevelvet]

Originally Posted by FilterFunk

Very well put. And didn't jazz, rock 'n' roll, soul, R&B, funk, etc., all originate in America? You're welcome, Jeff. Besides, who's to say what a "great player" is, anyway? Some of the most technically proficient players I've ever heard were also some of most boring and groove-impaired players I've ever heard.

+1000
As far as your last sentence, to me Jeff falls squarely into this category.

[bass12]

Originally Posted by inthevelvet

+1000
As far as your last sentence, to me Jeff falls squarely into this category.

Jeff Berlin might be a lot of things but, based on what I've heard, "groove impaired" is not one of them.

[dickfitts]

So....the Americans no longer produce decent musicians on par with other countries, with perhaps the odd notable exception...such as, let's say...Victor Wooten, Steve Bailey, Les Claypool, Stanley Clarke, Flea, Cliff Burton, Brian Bromberg, Adam Nitti, Bill Dickinson, Beaver Felton, Marcus Miller, Victor Bailey, Billy Sheehan, Rocco Prestia, Oteil Burbridge, Rodney "Skeet" Curtis, or...JEFF BERLIN? On a different note, where does Joshua Bell fit into this debate? 'Cause a lot of people basically rank him #1 in the world at this point...I dunno, between Berklee, Julliard, Eastman, the Manhattan School of Music, the Boston Conservatory...and that's just in my area...I'd say we're doing all right! AND WHO CARES WHAT COUNTRY YOU COME FROM ANYWAY??? Holy flippin' heck, I'm worked up!