Tired of 4/4?

[baalroo]

So, I'm in a fairly "progressive" band, and we play in all sorts of time signatures just sort of naturally. We don't avoid playing in 4/4, but we don't really do it any more often than any other variety of time signatures. Also, often when we have something in 4/4 there will be a measure of 5/4, 3/4, etc thrown in to make the section flow properly... as is the case with any other time sig we might be playing in, we've got parts that shift between all sorts of different timings based on what sounds right for the riff, or the melody, or the feel of the section.

However, when I listen to the large majority of groups it usually seems like they will just smash whatever part they are playing into 4/4 out of habit (or lack of ability/knowledge). It's crazy how often I'll hear a section of a song and feel like it's terribly obvious that they stuck on that last quarter note (or whatever it may be) just to keep the section in 4/4... even though to my ear it sounds horribly clunky. Now, I understand that there are certain genres in which dancing is important and in those particular genres it's important to keep things as simple as possible, but in a lot of genres that's not the case at all and the focus is on riffs, melodies, themes, etc.

Anymore I can't even really listen to an album that just sits in 4/4 the entire time, to my ear it's like listening to an entire album of songs with the same chord progression.

So, what are YOUR opinions on 4/4, "alternate" time signatures, etc?

[ehque]

I like odd time signatures. However, if a song has weird changes - especially a extra or missing beat just in THIS bar or something like that - then it just sounds like the band wrote THIS REALLY COOL RIFFFFFF OMG and needed to crowbar it in, damn the flow of the song.

Also, its difficult to dance to odd sigs, so you've already alienated a huge potential market.

[KeithKlaxwell]

for progressive music i dig it. for more pop, i really like how Sting approaches odd time. he plays it quite a bit but since there's always a simple melody over it he makes it feel as good as 4 to musicians and laymen alike.

[Jazz Ad]

I think most progressive bands use complex signatures just for the sake of it and most of the time, it shows.

For centuries 2/4 and 4/4 have dominated western music, it's a part of our culture. Since we were born 99 % of the music we heard was in 4/4. It feels natural.
To me time signature shall be dictated by the melody. If the melody flows better in 5/4 or 7/8, let it be this way.

As a consequence, I feel like a complex signature works if the average listener doesn't notice it. Listening to Solsbury Hill, Money or Blue Rondo a la Turk, you don't notice anything special unless you're a musician. It flows.
If the rhythm feels awkward, there are chances that the complex signature was inserted as a statement of sort rather than for musical reason.

[chump stain]

My band has a couple songs in 4/4, but most are odd, or a mix of different times. We do a lot of 5/4. I like all time. 7/8 is probably my favorite.

[fingerbun]

1. Personal taste. If you don't want to listen to 4/4, don't.

2. A lot of music is written as 4/4 when it really isn't. So "swing" or"shuffle" over a piece is really telling you to play in 12/8. So is your objection 4/4 or unvarying rhythms?

3. A lot of use of complex time signatures in rock and jazz has been done, imo, because the musicians wanted to be erudite in their ability to remember and count strange passages, not because of a sound they wanted. Contrast some Rush pieces (which I think have this tendency) to Pink Floyd's Money, which I think is an example of uber tastefulness. Orchestral music is a far richer source for tasteful use of complex and interesting time signatures imo.

P.S. not slagging Rush, appreciate their brilliance, just not my thing.

[fmoore200]

Seems to me that most musical genres, except classical, form melodies around familiar rhythmic structures. In western culture most of those patterns are in 4/4. Whether it is straight 8ths on the hi hat, or the cascara pattern on the side of a timbale, as a people we prefer 4/4 time. IMO

[champbassist]

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

I think most progressive bands use complex signatures just for the sake of it and most of the time, it shows.

+1

Sometimes it actually feels natural to have a riff/melody in an odd time signature. That's where odd times should be used, not merely for the sake of it.

For any inspiration on how to make odd time signatures work well and feel natural, I recommend listening to Sting. This (in 5/4) is a good start: YouTube - Sting - Seven Days

[Stick_Player]

So "swing" or"shuffle" over a piece is really telling you to play in 12/8

"Swing" is NOT 12/8.

[colcifer]

@champbassist Vinnie FTW!

[bacid]

6/8 is the best time signature. Ever.

[superbassman2000]

I agree with all the people who mentioned flow...if it sounds natural, then I'm cool with it, if it sounds like odd time for odd time's sake, then it doesn't really work well.

[baalroo]

Originally Posted by superbassman2000

I agree with all the people who mentioned flow...if it sounds natural, then I'm cool with it, if it sounds like odd time for odd time's sake, then it doesn't really work well.

I certainly agree with that, but I think what I'm trying to get at is that a whole lot of stuff in 4/4 suffers from the same problem. Meaning, it's in 4/4 just for the sake of being in 4/4 and despite the damage done to the "flow." I constantly hear tunes that to me feel shoehorned into 4/4 just because it's "normal."

[fingerbun]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

"Swing" is NOT 12/8.

Happy to stand corrected and am no theory guru.

I've never seen it written 12/8, usually it's written 4/4 with the instruction "swing" which basically leads to "quaver quaver" being played as "crotchet quaver" being very simplistic.

So if you had to write it as dots and they were all to be played at the right length (ie write it so someone who didn't have a clue what swing is would play the notes literally and sound right)what time signature would you use?

The only way I can see to do it in 4/4 is to do everything as triplets. Which may be technically 4/4 but seems unnatural to me.

[Munjibunga]

I love 4/4. It's my favorite time signature, closely followed by 6/8.

[sonic assassin]

i tend to mix in a good deal of odd sigs and compound meters. mostly by accident. since i just write what sounds good, i tend to find later that id just written it in 14/16 or alternating sections of 5/4 and 6/4. just comes naturally to me. drummers kinda hate me.

since i play hardcore, theres a lot of 3/4 being played in 4/4 until the common denominator makes it come back around. im also fond of accidentally writing polyrhythms. no one seems to notice just how complicated it is until you really take a look at it.

one is in 3/4. it counts 3 measures of 1/1, 3 measures of 2/2, 1 measure of 3/4 and 3 measures of 4/4. guitar and bass and kick drum stay the same, the snare hits move around the entire time, seemingly random. i just thought id have fun with least common denominators.

[Stick_Player]

Originally Posted by fingerbun

Happy to stand corrected and am no theory guru.

I've never seen it written 12/8, usually it's written 4/4 with the instruction "swing" which basically leads to "quaver quaver" being played as "crotchet quaver" being very simplistic.

So if you had to write it as dots and they were all to be played at the right length (ie write it so someone who didn't have a clue what swing is would play the notes literally and sound right)what time signature would you use?

The only way I can see to do it in 4/4 is to do everything as triplets. Which may be technically 4/4 but seems unnatural to me.

You can't notate Swing. You could try to explain, to those who don't have a clue, that the durations (i. e., of swung eighth notes) alternate between long and short. And generally, the faster the tempo, the 'more equal' the durations of the alternating eighth notes (straight).

The ratio can range from 1:1 (equal durations - very fast tempos/tempi) to 2:1 (shuffle - triplets or 12/8 - slow tempos/tempi). Most swung eighth notes are somewhere in between.

[fingerbun]

Originally Posted by Stick_Player

You can't notate Swing. You could try to explain, to those who don't have a clue, that the durations (i. e., of swung eighth notes) alternate between long and short. And generally, the faster the tempo, the 'more equal' the durations of the alternating eighth notes (straight).

The ratio can range from 1:1 (equal durations - very fast tempos/tempi) to 2:1 (shuffle - triplets or 12/8 - slow tempos/tempi). Most swung eighth notes are somewhere in between.

I have to admit I can't think of an example where the ratio is 1:1. Can you suggest one?

[colcifer]

Originally Posted by fingerbun

I have to admit I can't think of an example where the ratio is 1:1. Can you suggest one?

You need to work on jazz music more.

Personally, I like 3 and 5 best. I've used some really unusual ones too (my first string quartet starts out in 6/16 followed by 4/8).

[Ric5]

Pink Floyd's Money is in 7/8 ... until the guitar solo ... Gilmour could not play the solo in 7/8 ...