Unnoticed mistakes while recording

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

Hi everybody.

I want to talk about this topic because I'm not a seasoned studio player, something that I deeply regret since I know that working at a studio is one of the most constructive experiences a player can have. Unfortunately, my town isn't one of the true major cities of my country and there's no real recording activity here. Better said: Session musicians are very rare here and most bands rely on themselves for their recording needs.

But last week, a friend from a rock band called me because he has five original songs for recording. He told me that his bassist is a guitarist-turned-bassist and (according to him) he wanted a "real" bass player for that job. He gave me a CD with sequenced tracks that included some basic basslines and told me to study (and improve) them and let him know when I was ready. Very progressive and long songs (around six-seven minutes each) with many cool riffs, meter changes and carpal tunnel syndrome-inducing stuff for the right hand, BTW.

He called me on Tuesday to know about my progress and I told him "I have the first two songs ready for recording and also learned all the parts from the third but haven't memorized its form yet" and he said "Good. I'm going to arrange a session for those and we'll record the other two later".

It took place last night and it was very cool, but it made me think of something that has annoyed me a lot in my limited recording experience: To me, it's OK when you are aware of the mistakes you make, ask to stop by yourself and repeat until you get the part fine. But there are so many times in which you are recording and thinking it's getting really good, but when you hear it, it isn't like that because of minor rhythmical inaccuracies which wouldn't be noticed on a live performance (but a recording is a different story, of course). I don't know how it was before the digital era, but nowadays, with all of the available technology, everybody wants everything to be perfect. The kick drum and the bass must match perfectly (for instance) and of course I agree with that, but it's disappointing to realize that things don't turn to be as "perfect" as you were thinking and you must re-record them.

How common is that situation? Again, I'm asking because I'm mainly a live player and I enter a recording studio once every two years. Recording three songs (doing the third one by sections because I had to hear the parts first to remember them) took me four and a half hours. Of course, everybody there made sure that the material was "perfect" before leaving. I was really satisfied with the results, but the relatively often occurrence of those unnoticed mistakes left me a bit of a bitter taste.

Thanks for reading. Hope this thread turns into an interesting conversation.

[msquared]

It depends entirely on who is "producing" (in this case, your friend). I would ask him what he thinks. Tell him your concerns and be up front with him, and let him know that if he is a perfectionist that you want to spend some extra time shedding so you don't waste time in the studio.

[morf]

I've only recorded once, and then, it was just for fun to see what we'd sound like with a decent mastering.

Extremely hard to be perfect. You just gotta be into it much more than normally.

[mactac]

almost every time i record something I think it sounds like crap timing-wise, but when I'm playing live, I don't feel the same way.

so, same here.

[jady]

My rule is if no one else notices, I can live with it.

[lefty007]

It all comes down to the producer and/or artist, and what kind of feel they want.

I've done many sessions where the producers want me to interpret the song and let me do "my thing," and we both decide whether the performance is tight or needs fixing; and I've done to sessions where the producer and engineers want complete perfection, and will punch in every other bar if they think is necessary. . .

I have to agree that new technology helps to make "perfect" performances easier, but again, it's all in the ears of the producer to create a specific feel in the music.

Many producers will also have you record the song once or twice and then edit the crap out of it later, perfecting or destroying your performance. . .

[Lazylion]

Originally Posted by Alvaro Martín Gómez A.

The kick drum and the bass must match perfectly (for instance) and of course I agree with that, but it's disappointing to realize that things don't turn to be as "perfect" as you were thinking and you must re-record them.

Recording can be a real eye-opener. And it can be hard on the ego! But remember, even the big boys often do many takes and/or do a lot of fixing, before they get a satisfactory result. All you can do is do your best, and don't let the repitition get you upset. It's a different animal from playing live.

Take a deep breath, and do this:
Now do it again
and again
and again
etc!

and then they go back to the second take and go "That's the one!" LOL

[Alvaro Martín Gómez A.]

Thanks for your replies so far, guys!

Originally Posted by Lazylion

Recording can be a real eye-opener. And it can be hard on the ego! But remember, even the big boys often do many takes and/or do a lot of fixing, before they get a satisfactory result. All you can do is do your best, and don't let the repitition get you upset. It's a different animal from playing live.

Take a deep breath, and do this:
Now do it again
and again
and again
etc!

and then they go back to the second take and go "That's the one!" LOL

Fortunately I've been blessed with the gift of patience and it's no problem for me to repeat whenever necessary. Again, I'm the first one to stop when there's a mistake I'm aware of (even if the others didn't notice anything), but my point is that feeling of "I was sure this was OK. Well, let's do it again, then".

[Sir Edward V]

I haven't done any professional recordings yet... my band might try to do the best we can on my mac in the next few months. Actually separate recording and whatnot, we have done some all at once recordings on my mac that sound decent for how we did them.

[Joe P]

Originally Posted by msquared

It depends entirely on who is "producing" (in this case, your friend). I would ask him what he thinks. Tell him your concerns and be up front with him, and let him know that if he is a perfectionist that you want to spend some extra time shedding so you don't waste time in the studio.

Uh... Yeah, but don't call someone a perfectionist; "perfectionism", as far as I'm concerned, is a crippling neurosis that leaves the sufferer impotent and fairly worthless.

I sort-of have a bug-a-boo about that term. Especially when it's the case that someone says "we have that song DOWN"; I say "well - we need to tighten-up that groove feel a little - don't you think? we tend to drag in the bridge a little; it should be more bubbly"; person says "you're a perfectionist, aren't you, Joe?". I pretty-much can't hide the fact that I'm insulted at that point, especially if the case is that we sorta SUCKED in that part, and they're implying that I have 'a negative attitude' or whatever.

Back on-topic: It can drive-ya nuts if you let a glitch go; every time you ever listen back, you dread it when the part comes-up! But on the same token - if the whole track has killer groove, but a doinked note, and you have to pick between that and a 'perfect', but more-sterile, or less-grooveful take... I'd take the GROOVE! Also - there've been cases inwhich I technically goofed-up a part, but 'it works' great in the song - I don't realize it until I quit bitchin', and actually LISTEN to it in the mix!

Joe

[Phil Smith]

It's not uncommon that you'll have to re-record something or they will have to fix something especially if you're not reading a part and playing to a click. If you're playing to a click, you can usually hear where you've fallen off the wagon but that depends on how stretched you are i.e. the difficulty you have in playing the part.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by Alvaro Martín Gómez A.

It took place last night and it was very cool, but it made me think of something that has annoyed me a lot in my limited recording experience: To me, it's OK when you are aware of the mistakes you make, ask to stop by yourself and repeat until you get the part fine. But there are so many times in which you are recording and thinking it's getting really good, but when you hear it, it isn't like that because of minor rhythmical inaccuracies which wouldn't be noticed on a live performance (but a recording is a different story, of course). I don't know how it was before the digital era, but nowadays, with all of the available technology, everybody wants everything to be perfect. The kick drum and the bass must match perfectly (for instance) and of course I agree with that, but it's disappointing to realize that things don't turn to be as "perfect" as you were thinking and you must re-record them.

Since you're not yet very experienced with recording, and because this is new material that is fairly complex, you may just have a case of the nerves. Relax. Don't over-think it too much. If you've got a solid part ready to play, just let your excellent sense of time help establish the groove...

For another thing, don't feel the need to stop the take every time you make a little goof. And if/when you do make a goof, don't let it disrupt your concentration - keep playing! Some of the best takes may have one or two little goofs in them - and with digital tape or hard disk media used practically everywhere now, those are easy enough to fix with just a couple of quick punch-ins. Simple as that...

It takes time to get really tight with other musicians with whom you've never played before - or to learn how to do it quickly. But if it took only four and a half hours to finish three tracks, that's not bad at all. The rest of it will come with more experience - and with really close, intensive listening - both while tracking, as well as in the control room during playback. If you can quickly identify the problem areas during the first or second test takes, you can make the necessary corrections all the more quickly...

I love to record...

MM

[Bard2dbone]

And thank GOD for ProTools.

My old guitar player is an audio engineer now. He is basically my connection for more than half of the jingle gigs I get.

A few weeks ago we did two commercials at his house. His digi002 setup at home can 'talk' to the fancy setup at work well enough that he can occasionally record on my schedule. Basically he is more comfortable with my personal style of playing than that of either of the other two guys who get recommended the most. He should be. We've played together on an off for nineteen years.

So sometimes you lock in tight as a condom and all is good. Don't expect that every time.

Sometimes you'll lock in like that and it sounds too rigid. The track doesn't 'breathe'.

You have to learn when to let your time be just a little bit loose. And you have to be able to accept that that is actually the right thing to do sometimes.

ALWAYS go by what the engineer wants. If you have a better idea, do his version first and only then suggest your idea.

And practicepracticepracticepracticepractice till you can do LOTS of styles, regardless of if you ever think anyone will ask for any of them. You'd be amazed at the things I've had to fake my way through.

A cowboy boot commercial. Sounds like stright ahead country, doesn't it? On the third take, John asked if I could do a salsa feel on the next go through. And that's the one I heard on the radio.

It's a wierd world, sometimes.

[morf]

Originally Posted by Bard2dbone

And thank GOD for ProTools.

Big +1

[BassChuck]

Originally Posted by Joe P

Uh... Yeah, but don't call someone a perfectionist; "perfectionism", as far as I'm concerned, is a crippling neurosis that leaves the sufferer impotent and fairly worthless.

I sort-of have a bug-a-boo about that term. Especially when it's the case that someone says "we have that song DOWN"; I say "well - we need to tighten-up that groove feel a little - don't you think? we tend to drag in the bridge a little; it should be more bubbly"; person says "you're a perfectionist, aren't you, Joe?". I pretty-much can't hide the fact that I'm insulted at that point, especially if the case is that we sorta SUCKED in that part, and they're implying that I have 'a negative attitude' or whatever.

Back on-topic: It can drive-ya nuts if you let a glitch go; every time you ever listen back, you dread it when the part comes-up! But on the same token - if the whole track has killer groove, but a doinked note, and you have to pick between that and a 'perfect', but more-sterile, or less-grooveful take... I'd take the GROOVE! Also - there've been cases inwhich I technically goofed-up a part, but 'it works' great in the song - I don't realize it until I quit bitchin', and actually LISTEN to it in the mix!

Joe

Great post. We have to be very careful that the goal we are chasing is MUSIC and not perfection for the sake of perfection. If we let go of music, the computer geeks will be the artists.... or at least the ones making the music. This is a very important topic and probably should be a thread all to itself.

[Richard Lindsey]

The guys are right that in the end it really depends on what the producer and the artist (and/or the engineer, if he or she is being given a say in this) want. I'm not a studio pro either, but I've done a fair bit of recording, often with people who've done more recording than I, and I've always felt that if the people calling the shots are happy, I can live with it. If there's something that bugs me that they seem to have missed, I might mention it--something like, "Hey, can we check the beginning of the second chorus? Was that OK what I did there, or should I do it again?" But if it's not a problem, it's not a problem. If it really bugs me, I might press the point a little: "I think I can do that so it sounds better. Want me to take a whack at it real quick?" If the answer is still no, then it's their call, not mine.

As for little inaccuracies of rhythm, I'd say that how important they are depends on context. There are times when a little "creative inaccuracy" is completely acceptable, and times when it actually might improve the groove. There are famous records that you know that have little inaccuracies of rhythm (if judged by a strict standard), but they feel so good that no one cares, and in fact, if they were 100% perfect, they might not feel so good. OTOH, there are also times when you really need to be exactly on the money rhythmically. It's just a matter of figuring out which times are which.

As a suggestion, I'd recommend that you not be too hasty to stop a recording on your own initiative if you feel you haven't done something quite right. If you're getting a lot of things wrong, or you're completely lost, sure, but otherwise, I'm more likely to let the producer/engineer stop me. It sometimes happens that you've gotten into a killer groove but are just making one or two little mistakes. It would be a shame to stop a great take just because of a little mistake that could easily be fixed later.

[ric1312]

Generally what the sound engineer/producer will do is let you record a track expecting the first to need to be redone, but hoping you just nail it.

Don't worry about messing up. If the track is going good and you flub, don't stop keep going unless told to stop and he wants to punch in right then and there.

If a whole track is good with one or two minor things, he'll probably just have you play along and punch you in over anything noticeable.

Don't be afraid to tell him that you'd like to hear more of this or that instrument or need to adjust your sound.

Drums and vocals usually take the longest to record in the studio.

[Baryonyx]

I've never recorded in a studio for a personal project, just as a trio of bass and two guitars playing instrumental tunes, recorded through an old 4 track tape recorder. It was just a spur of the moment, "lets record our tunes" type thing, but it turned out great! I'm sure everyone made a couple of minor mistakes due to "red light syndrome" as I call it, but other than that, it just helped to relax and go for it.

I've recorded at my schools "studio" for other peoples work, and that was okay.

[Ayliffe]

i pissed our engineer/producer fo multiple times because i wouldnt let us move on the next riff until i got my lines perfect (and not to brag, but they aren't exactly fallout boy basslines) so it took a while. but thats me.

[Joe Nerve]

I've done a lot of recording on my own, and recently started doing a fair amount for hire. Had a bizarre session last night that I'll either start a new thread about or mention after adressing your question.

As already said, digital recording (pro tools) makes it easy to fix just about anything you can imagine, even drum glitches. You siad a couple of times that you stopped when made a mistake? I'm assuming you were punching the bass into pre-recorded tracks. If it were with a band stopping is NOT the thing to do, and I'm not too sure it's the best route to take even if you're sitting alone with headphones. I like to go through the whole thing as best I can, and then go back and punch in when necessary. If you have an engineer who's patient and knows his tools, you can also record several tracks and then have them cut and paste the best of them all. That's kind of time consuming though and most people don't wanna do it unless they have lots of money, or it's their studio.

My ego has taken many hits in the studio also. Record something, hear it back and go "Whaaa???". I think there are many varibles that go into that happening. Nerves, playing with headphones, being seperated from the musicians... sometimes I even think the electronics are to blame. Anyhow, how I still work at overcoming this is by first - trusting the band and producer and zipping my lip. I'll fix blatent errors, tell them I can always play the track better, and let it be their call. If they're happy that's all that matters. And I won't look back. I often don't even want a copy of the songs these days.

The other thing I did was practice recording a lot on my own. Want to make sure if there are timing or locking in problems that it ain't me. I bought a casio that has drum beats in it and play, jam and record to them all the time. Metronome too. I put literally hours and hours and hours into it. Locking in and grooving have become the most important things to me in my playing.

Last thing I'll say (won't post last night's experience here ) is that more often than not I'm way harder on myself than I oughta be. I recorded something 2 years ago that I left the studio hating myself for and I was just informed 2 days ago that it went from the 600s, to 34 on this chart (damn! I just checked and it's racing to the top!). It's Alexa Vetere's breath again: http://z100.com/cc-common/artist_sub...all.html?gen=1 First bongo recording, by the way.