Venue/Clubs volume

musicman666 · #1 12-01-2012, 10:08 AM

Short story.
Last night I went to see a friends band at a local club in my area. They are a punk/noise core band so I knew I would need ear plugs for this one. The band had 2 guitar half stacks and the usual Ampeg SVT & 810...all dimmed to 11! Needless to say they were FREAKING loud without the need for PA support, but Pa support was indeed included for drums, guitars, vocals and BASS! Seriously!? I could imagine miking the drums to keep up with the volume levels of the bass and guitar, but miking the guitar and bass?! I don't get it. The volume from the stage was more than adequate for the club but the sound man thought it best to increase the volume through the PA. Unfortunately I did not see anyone else with ear plugs.
Question. What is a venues responsibility to warn it's patrons of extreme volumes and the potential for permanent ear damage? I am curious about others opinions.
Damn...Even with ear plugs I had to listen to them outside...

musicman666 · #2 12-01-2012, 10:42 AM

I forgot to mention that this is a very small 200+ club.
I do think it is the responsibility of the club to warn it's patrons of possible permanent hearing damage/loss. If I had the available time I would set-up a both in-front of some of these clubs and sell ear plugs!
What are your opinions on this.....Has this already been discussed to death here on TB?

musicman666 · #3 12-01-2012, 10:51 AM

Maybe I should change the thread title to....."What's the best color pickguard for my P?"
That will get a response! LOL Anyone?

MarkMgibson · #4 12-01-2012, 11:15 AM

I like my live music very loud, so long as sound quality is good. I think when the levels start to get up to the 100dB mark, clubs should offer people ear plugs and warn them that it's going to be loud. I wouldn't wear them, but that's my choice.

Many countries do have laws about dB levels these days, and that is something I strongly disagree with. It's just more of the "nanny state" laws that have become so prevalent in the last 15-20 years. I remember seeing Deep Purple on their Perfect Strangers tour, and it was seriously loud. There were some complaints, but hey, it was Deep Purple - what did people expect?!

musicman666 · #5 12-01-2012, 11:32 AM

The so called "nanny state" in my opinion is directly related to an uniformed/uneducated peoples in a population. Example: It took years of lawsuits for cigarette companies to admit to increased levels of cancer in smokers. In California all gas stations must have labels and signs posted of carcinogens present. We also have laws that limit driving speed as well. Maybe we need to create laws that limit the volume levels at clubs? I feel it becomes our responsibility to inform people of risk when they are uniformed or uneducated in specific matters. Unfortunately we live in a very "me" centered society. These attitudes effect us all.

pflash4001 · #6 12-01-2012, 11:41 AM

There's a local bar I refuse to go to, even though the owner is a friend of a lot of the local bands. His place is maybe 30 ft x 75 ft. They have 2 JBL 2x18 subs and 2 Peavey SP-4s for the FOH. I him every time I go in there I feel physically sick because it's so damned loud. Nothing has changed, so I don't go there anymore.

musicman666 · #7 12-01-2012, 11:50 AM

I wonder how many people go to clubs unknowing of what excessive volume levels can do to one's hearing? I did not see anyone at this club wearing plugs. My question in post #5, "Maybe we need to create laws that limit volume levels at clubs?" We limit noise levels in residential areas. What is your thoughts on this?
I am really looking forward to reading your opinions! Thanks

Lowest End · #8 12-01-2012, 11:59 AM

No, we do not need to create laws to limit volume levels at clubs.

As they so eloquently put it in the cinematic masterpiece that was "Airheads": "if it's too loud, you're too old".

Live heavy music is loud. If you don't like it loud, don't go see live heavy music. Don't tell me how loud my band can or should be.

musicman666 · #9 12-01-2012, 12:09 PM

^Lowest End^What if your 16 year old daughter or son went to one of these clubs (all ages of course) and suffered permanent hearing loss. Who's carries that responsibility. Your daughter/son? You, because you failed to inform them of the potential hazard? The venue, for not posting a large obvious sign? I question these things because our society is very "me" centered. When your actions effect others who are uniformed is that their problem or do you carry a certain level of responsibility? All due respect of course.

Lowest End · #10 12-01-2012, 12:14 PM

You and your child carry that responsibility. Not me. You talk about responsibility but assign it everywhere but where it belongs. If huge walls of speakers don't scream "it's going to get very loud" to you, then I don't know what to tell you.

If you don't want your kid to go to a loud show, don't let them. It's your job as a parent to do that, not mine as a musician to warn them of the staggeringly obvious.

RED J · #11 12-01-2012, 12:18 PM

The first time I stood in a local club in front of a dimed Marshall full stack I knew I had found the definition of insanity.I wasn't old then, and I like my music loud. I have hearing loss and tinnitus. Crazy then, crazy now. But you are, of course, free to play as loud as you want, and listen as loud as you want. However, actions have consequences.Universal law.

Gab124 · #12 12-01-2012, 12:18 PM

I don't understand the need for loud loud. At a certain level there is no more detail in the music and it is just a sea of noise. The best musicians I have seen have lower levels and you can hear how good they are, alternatively there are many less talented groups out there that, whether they are aware or not, mask their inabilities behind the noise.. I don't think there should laws on levels though, however I do think it should be a law to post risks and have proper ear protection for sale at the venue. And for god's make all bars smoke free!

Lowest End · #13 12-01-2012, 12:20 PM

Anyway, aside from general "there outta be a law!" stupidity, let's get into the practical side of "speed limits" at clubs.

Where should the SPL be measured? Inside? Outside? How far from the speakers? Between them? To one side? What if the club isn't set up where the legal "measuring location" isn't possible? What SPL weighting? Who determines the limit? How will it be enforced? Who keeps calibration records? What happens if the $20 radio shack SPL meter breaks?

musicman666 · #14 12-01-2012, 12:22 PM

Not all is obvious. Example: What if your pyrotechnics,(per say) caught the club on fire and killed someone? Are you responsible? The club? The patron, they should have known better? Just because you can't see the damage doesn't mean it is has not happened. Is it really so obvious? Once again respectfully.

musicman666 · #15 12-01-2012, 12:27 PM

I am certainly not condoning "laws" but just bringing the question to light. I am sure it will come up in the future. I do agree with Gab124 on laws requiring the posting of risks and proper ear protection for sale.

Lowest End · #16 12-01-2012, 12:27 PM

If it was used negligently, then yes (see the Station Nightclub fire in Rhode Island) - the band and club are responsible. If it was properly licensed and used (and something just went tragically wrong), then no.

Blame isn't necessary every time something goes wrong. More nanny state laws won't protect people from plain old bad luck.

fourstringdrums · #17 12-01-2012, 12:32 PM

We have had a lot of discussion on this and it still seems that certain people don't understand the difference between loud and unnecessarily loud. Having amps pegged AND mic'd is irresponsible. You're doing damage to your own hearing and to those of your fans and to say "it's their choice that they make if they want to come to our shows" just shows immaturity and lack of respect for the fans.

I don't know if it should be a law but it should be common sense. If it's uncomfortably loud, it's too loud..you don't have to measure it.

Lowest End · #18 12-01-2012, 12:36 PM

The term "unnecessary" is about as subjective as one can get. What is too loud for some isn't loud enough for others. You are simply trying to stop people from doing things you don't like under the guise of knowing better.

Volume level is subjective and appropriate volume levels vary greatly by genre. SPL levels that would be decidedly too loud for a piano bar would be nowhere near loud enough for an Iron Maiden concert.

pflash4001 · #19 12-01-2012, 12:37 PM

I think we as musicians have a responsibility to protect OUR hearing so we can continue to work with and enjoy music, but it's YOUR responsibility as a consumer and parent to teach your kids how to protect themselves. I put this in the same category as those who want to sue McDonalds because your kids are obese. McDonalds didn't force you into their parking lot. They didn't make you upsize that #3 combo. YOU did. YOU fed that to your kid. Just about everyone in America has at least an inkling that noise is damaging to your hearing, just as almost everyone realizes that fast food is a caloric gut-bomb. Maybe that isn't so elsewhere, but in our society it's in the news and media so much that it's hard NOT to know. The same goes for "uninformed" teen moms. I'm a teacher. I see it all the time. Kids in 2nd grade know at least a bit about how kids are made. They may not have all the details yet, but they have a good idea and some definitely know more than others. The fact of the matter is people know, but it's always someone else's fault. This attitude always gets me steamed. Like someone posted earlier, if a wall of stacks doesn't deliver the message, then there's not much else to say or do. You can't fix stupid.

fourstringdrums · #20 12-01-2012, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowest End

The term "unnecessary" is about as subjective as one can get. What is too loud for some isn't loud enough for others. You are simply trying to stop people from doing things you don't like under the guise of knowing better.

Volume level is subjective and appropriate volume levels vary greatly by genre. SPL levels that would be decidedly too loud for a piano bar would be nowhere near loud enough for an Iron Maiden concert.

It's not that hard. As the OP said, the amps were dimmed to 11 WITH PA support. That's unnecessary.

There was something in another thread (I forget which) that someone said about being only as loud as you need to be to hear yourself, and I fully agree with that. Any louder just for the sake of being loud is, and I will use the word again, unnecessary.