Venue/Clubs volume - Page 2

Gab124 · #21 12-01-2012, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourstringdrums

We have had a lot of discussion on this and it still seems that certain people don't understand the difference between loud and unnecessarily loud. Having amps pegged AND mic'd is irresponsible. You're doing damage to your own hearing and to those of your fans and to say "it's their choice that they make if they want to come to our shows" just shows immaturity and lack of respect for the fans.

I don't know if it should be a law but it should be common sense. If it's uncomfortably loud, it's too loud..you don't have to measure it.

+10000
But we are a society of self centered people which seek out over indulgence, and to think this will ever change is dreaming. I don't like the "nanny state" idea either, but people are just kinda dumb really. The thing is, I normally wear ear plugs because of the damage I already have from when I was younger and less wise. But, I don't want to wear them as it does detract from the sound, but everyone plays so friggin loud I have to - and I know I am not the minority in this. So, I whole heartedly agree with the "no respect for your fans" comment.

musicman666 · #22 12-01-2012, 12:42 PM

Unfortunately "common sense" is not so common in our society. Do people (musicians in this case) with common sense on this issue have a responsibility to inform the patrons who don't? I believe we do have the responsibility to inform our guests'. Do we to really expect the club to dictate what common sense should be?
(Volume level and hearing loss is not subjective).

Gab124 · #23 12-01-2012, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicman666

Unfortunately "common sense" is not so common in our society. Do people (musicians in this case) with common sense on this issue have a responsibility to inform the patrons who don't? I believe we do have the responsibility to inform our guests'. Do we to really expect the club to dictate what common sense should be?
(Volume level and hearing loss is not subjective).

I don't ever want to have to educate people on the sound of my own band, but rather try to educate my band mates that there is no reason to play so loud in the first place (not always easy). I have done loud shows and much quieter ones with equal positive feed back from the audience. I will never agree that it needs to be loud to make the fans happy.

musicman666 · #24 12-01-2012, 12:46 PM

So far as Mc D's and obesity goes. How is one to know that their food is unhealthy. If we are not educated on matters of science/diet how can we be informed? That is why there are laws to inform people of the food content at mc d's....so they can make their own decision.

musicman666 · #25 12-01-2012, 12:49 PM

I simply believe signs should be posted of the potential risk of hearing damage. Club owners can even sell plugs to make up the cost difference of the signs!

fourstringdrums · #26 12-01-2012, 12:51 PM

I don't think anyone has the responsibility to inform anyone. I do think it's the audience member's choice. After all, they're going to a rock show. However I do think it's the band's responsibility to use common sense on the gig when it comes to volume. Every gig I play at this point I make note of the size of the room and the audience's proximity to the stage and adjust accordingly. The gig I did last night was opening for a folk headliner, so we knew what people were expecting for volume. But, there were people 5 feet from the stage and regardless of the music being played I was aware of that, and if it had been a rock club I would have had concern for those people and made sure that as a band we didn't blow them out of their seats.

skychief · #27 12-01-2012, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicman666

Question. What is a venues responsibility to warn it's patrons of extreme volumes and the potential for permanent ear damage? I am curious about others opinions.
Damn...Even with ear plugs I had to listen to them outside...

I think in California there is no responsibility for any venue that has live music to warn of potential ear damage from loud music.

Its generally assumed that there will be be loud music if a venue has a live rock band. If folks are willing to subject themselves to unusually high SPL's, then they alone should be held liable for any ear damage which occurs.

Im no lawyer, but Id wager that if a club patron tried to sue a venue for hearing loss due to loud music, well,the best lawyer on the planet wouldnt be able to convince a jury that the plaintiff had no idea that loud music can cause hearing loss.

disclaimer:

I could be completely mistaken about the above. IMO.

musicman666 · #28 12-01-2012, 12:53 PM

On second thought I will agree with Gab124 (once again) on rather educating our fellow band mates on the matter..not the patrons.
Got to go to work ... I think this is turning out to be quite a learning experience.
Thanks for your opinions!

pflash4001 · #29 12-01-2012, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicman666

So far as Mc D's and obesity goes. How is one to know that their food is unhealthy. If we are not educated on matters of science/diet how can we be informed? That is why there are laws to inform people of the food content at mc d's....so they can make their own decision.

My point there is that we as a society know that it's not the healthiest choice. One meal isn't going to make you obese, but continuous consumption will. Its hard in our society to go a month without hearing something about these products' harmful effects. The problem lies in the fact that after being told this and choosing to eat it anyway, people still want to hold someone else responsible. I know we may not have all the details on HOW it happens but we know it's harmful. Why is it then someone else's fault?

Gab124 · #30 12-01-2012, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by musicman666

On second thought I will agree with Gab124 (once again) on rather educating our fellow band mates on the matter..not the patrons.
Got to go to work ... I think this is turning out to be quite a learning experience.
Thanks for your opinions!

Good luck! The more of us that do that the less problems for our listeners. And maybe, just maybe, we won't have to haul so much equipment to the shows

Gab124 · #31 12-01-2012, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pflash4001

My point there is that we as a society know that it's not the healthiest choice. One meal isn't going to make you obese, but continuous consumption will. Its hard in our society to go a month without hearing something about these products' harmful effects. The problem lies in the fact that after being told this and choosing to eat it anyway, people still want to hold someone else responsible. I know we may not have all the details on HOW it happens but we know it's harmful. Why is it then someone else's fault?

This is a very thought provoking statement about the society we live in. We don't take care of ourselves and big business knows what we like to spend our money on, creating a viscous cycle. The "blame someone" part I think is from individuals wanting to profit somehow really. Lawyers have made slip and falls, hot coffee and other really stupid things a quick way to make alot of money. I don't like that in our society, I would love to believe people knew their coffee was hot and if they get burned then be more careful. We even are starting to blame the government for this when really we created it ourselves. I don't know what the answer is. Except - people should take more responsibility! We should play at reasonable levels, restaurants should serve healthier food in reasonable portions, lawyers should not take cases where it clearly is the fault of the "victim", big business should get some morals, politics should not be a occupations and lobbyists should be run our of the country. If you have a farm you should have a giant truck, but not if you work at a library and live in town. People individually are the answer, and that is every one of us.

Lowest End · #32 12-01-2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fourstringdrums

It's not that hard. As the OP said, the amps were dimmed to 11 WITH PA support. That's unnecessary.

Unnecessary for you perhaps. Don't tell me what's necessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gab124

+10000
But we are a society of self centered people which seek out over indulgence, and to think this will ever change is dreaming. I don't like the "nanny state" idea either, but people are just kinda dumb really. The thing is, I normally wear ear plugs because of the damage I already have from when I was younger and less wise. But, I don't want to wear them as it does detract from the sound, but everyone plays so friggin loud I have to - and I know I am not the minority in this. So, I whole heartedly agree with the "no respect for your fans" comment.

Wait, you're telling me I'm being self centered because you want me do tell you something that common sense and simple reasoning ability should already tell you? That I'm being self centered because you come to my show and think it's too loud?

What kind of twisted logic is that?

My band is playing tonight. We are going to be extremely loud, and will likely mic the whole thing and put it through the PA. I shall make sure to think of this silly whiny thread.

pflash4001 · #33 12-01-2012, 01:20 PM

Like I said, I'm a teacher, and I'd there is a place where it's someone else's fault, it's at school. If your kid is failing, it's the teacher's fault. Even thought we're there half an hour before the bell (or longer), even though we're at school until 6:00 (or later) even though other teachers are willing to help you if you don't understand it the way I'M teaching it (which sometimes happens), it's always MY fault. Even though I told your kid two weeks ago he was missing 4 assignments it's my fault he failed. You see this everywhere. You can't find the defendant guilty of the crime. He comes from an abusive home and didn't know putting a gun to her head would have the consequences it had. I'm sorry. As a society, it's time to buck up and take responsibility for ourselves. I hate this attitude.

Chico16 · #34 12-01-2012, 01:23 PM

Damn! Dude's rolling with an 8x10 and he STILL has to crank it up to 11? Even worse ALL of them at 11? Ear drum blow out in 3...2...1

Gab124 · #35 12-01-2012, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowest End

Unnecessary for you perhaps. Don't tell me what's necessary.

Wait, you're telling me I'm being self centered because you want me do tell you something that common sense and simple reasoning ability should already tell you? That I'm being self centered because you come to my show and think it's too loud?

What kind of twisted logic is that?

My band is playing tonight. We are going to be extremely loud, and will likely mic the whole thing and put it through the PA. I shall make sure to think of this silly whiny thread.

No, if you read my other statement you would see I do not condone the need for the band to tell people what is a threat to their health (venue should). And, I am not saying you are self centered for playing loud, however, the people that watch you likely are. I would, however, say that you, feeling the need to play so loud, are part of the problem. But, I do not think a law should be made to tell you what to do or not do. However, hearing this make me really think I should invest more in hearing aid companies as watts are getting really cheap and these overly loud bands are getting more common. That is all, have fun tonight.

fourstringdrums · #36 12-01-2012, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowest End

Unnecessary for you perhaps. Don't tell me what's necessary.

My band is playing tonight. We are going to be extremely loud, and will likely mic the whole thing and put it through the PA. I shall make sure to think of this silly whiny thread.

Why the attitude and why do you think this is a "silly, whiny thread".

I'm assuming you're being sarcastic, but even if you're not, why do you think your band needs to be extremely loud? Why do you have to go beyond what is required? What is achieved by pegging your amps and making everything as loud as possible?

Of course my initial reaction is "because your band isn't good enough and you have to use volume and "brutality" to make up for a lack of talent" But I don't know you or your band so I won't go there. I just don't get it.. Even when I was younger and I was more into metal and I would go to shows I didn't get it.

I'm not badgering you, I just would like to know why you feel that going to such extremes is required and why you don't care if it makes for an uncomfortable experience for your fans? Don't you want them to enjoy themselves and wouldn't you rather that all of your fans can have a good time rather than some of them leaving or not showing up at all because you're going to be too loud?

lokikallas · #37 12-01-2012, 01:28 PM

I think that there should be a sign indicating the db level that each club allows. A warning as to the risks according to OSHA standards would be appropriate. Unless zoning noise levels are in effect I believe it is the responsibility of every venue owner to set a db max and enforce it. If someone gets hearing loss without warning they should sue. I know people are responsible for themselves but most people are stupid sheep and will let themselves get hurt.

Gab124 · #38 12-01-2012, 01:29 PM

By the way. I also will run an 810 even in smaller venues. But I always push it gently and only use it because I really like the tone it gives. I often run my amp very low with it.

lokikallas · #39 12-01-2012, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lowest End

Anyway, aside from general "there outta be a law!" stupidity, let's get into the practical side of "speed limits" at clubs.

Where should the SPL be measured? Inside? Outside? How far from the speakers? Between them? To one side? What if the club isn't set up where the legal "measuring location" isn't possible? What SPL weighting? Who determines the limit? How will it be enforced? Who keeps calibration records? What happens if the $20 radio shack SPL meter breaks?

At FoH, C weighting. Club owners, an spl meter at FoH, liability lawsuit, buy 2.

Lowest End · #40 12-01-2012, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skychief

I think in California there is no responsibility for any venue that has live music to warn of potential ear damage from loud music.

Its generally assumed that there will be be loud music if a venue has a live rock band. If folks are willing to subject themselves to unusually high SPL's, then they alone should be held liable for any ear damage which occurs.

Im no lawyer, but Id wager that if a club patron tried to sue a venue for hearing loss due to loud music, well,the best lawyer on the planet wouldnt be able to convince a jury that the plaintiff had no idea that loud music can cause hearing loss.

disclaimer:

I could be completely mistaken about the above. IMO.

http://www.disneydreaming.com/2012/0...-was-too-loud/