What constitutes fraud?

[NKUSigEp]

This thread is congruent to some others that have recently been shut down due to the uncontrollable flame-wars going on. So I'd like to stay away from that and stick to facts.

What is fraud in your opinion? Some sites have rules and guidelines but too often are they vague and misleading themselves! For instance, someone wants to sell a bass on ebay but is no expert in the field. They list the bass as some vintage big name brand, though to the learned few it obviously is not.

Is it the seller's responsibility to do 15 minutes worth of research to find out exactly what they're selling or the buyer's responsibility to do 15 minutes worth of research to find out exactly what they're buying?

My opinion is that it lies on the seller's shoulders just to cover their own butt. A buyer could come back sometime in the future claiming fraud and if it turns out that way, you're screwed. But a seller can't go back to the buyer in the future and demand more money for something they under-sold.

[gottawalk]

It's always good to "cover your own butt", even as the seller, but to constitute fraud, it's my belief that there has to be intent. The seller has to knowingly advertise the product with the intent to deceive the buyer into thinking that they're getting something that they're actually not. (Sort of like selling a "Fender Precision" that's actually a knock-off that the seller either put a Fender decal on the headstock to fool buyers, or new that someone else had but still advertises it as a Fender P.)

In the long run, it's always "buyer beware", but as a seller it's best to know your product! If you don't, and you get called on the carpet for it, it's awful hard to prove that you're just an idiot that doesn't know anything about the products you sell.

[NKUSigEp]

Originally Posted by gottawalk

It's always good to "cover your own butt", even as the seller, but to constitute fraud, it's my belief that there has to be intent. The seller has to knowingly advertise the product with the intent to deceive the buyer into thinking that they're getting something that they're actually not. (Sort of like selling a "Fender Precision" that's actually a knock-off that the seller either put a Fender decal on the headstock to fool buyers, or new that someone else had but still advertises it as a Fender P.)

In the long run, it's always "buyer beware", but as a seller it's best to know your product! If you don't, and you get called on the carpet for it, it's awful hard to prove that you're just an idiot that doesn't know anything about the products you sell.

So what are you saying? LOL j/k

Assume the seller might have some small notion in the back of their mind that what they have is a fake, but just would rather not know either way in hopes that they make a buck regardless of it actually being a vintage big name bass or not. What then?

[gottawalk]

Originally Posted by NKUSigEp

So what are you saying? LOL j/k

Assume the seller might have some small notion in the back of their mind that what they have is a fake, but just would rather not know either way in hopes that they make a buck regardless of it actually being a vintage big name bass or not. What then?

Once that "small notion" is there, and they decide to sell it as something else anyway, I'd say they could be in trouble if some buyer wanted to make an issue of it. It's the "intent" to trick someone into believing in something that isn't true about a product that makes it fraud.

[shooter_mi]

I agree that there has to be intent to deceive on the part of the seller, but to put an even finer point on it, you would have to be able to prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the seller was deliberately being deceptive. That's nearly impossible to do.

[rfclef]

If I have a bass that is a Blick, and I sell it as a Blick: Good.
If I have a bass that I truelly believe is a Blick but is not and I sell it as a Blick: Honest mistake (which could still come back to bite me, but no fraud).
If I have a bass I suspect might not be a Blick, but I sell it as a Blick without disclosing my suspicions to the buyerand it turns out it is not a Blick: fraud. If I tell the buyer what I think and he buys it anyhow: Good wether it is a blick or not.
If I have a bass I know is a Fake Blick, and sell it as a Real Blick: Fraud.
If I have a bass I know is a Fake Blick, and sell it as a Fake Blick, or Blickenbetter, or Redinbacher, or labeled as a Blick Tribute, or Blick Copy, or Carmen Miranda: Good.

[NKUSigEp]

Originally Posted by rfclef

If I have a bass that is a Blick, and I sell it as a Blick: Good.
If I have a bass that I truelly believe is a Blick but is not and I sell it as a Blick: Honest mistake (which could still come back to bite me, but no fraud).
If I have a bass I suspect might not be a Blick, but I sell it as a Blick without disclosing my suspicions to the buyerand it turns out it is not a Blick: fraud. If I tell the buyer what I think and he buys it anyhow: Good wether it is a blick or not.
If I have a bass I know is a Fake Blick, and sell it as a Real Blick: Fraud.
If I have a bass I know is a Fake Blick, and sell it as a Fake Blick, or Blickenbetter, or Redinbacher, or labeled as a Blick Tribute, or Blick Copy, or Carmen Miranda: Good.

Interesting terminology

But as a buyer, how can I prove that someone knowingly sold me a fake - as in the seller had an idea but just didn't voice it at any time (I'm not a mind-reader btw)?

And this goes back to my previous point - a buyer can go back to a seller claiming fraud if it is a fake. But a seller can't go back to the buyer and demand the item back or more money for it.

[rfclef]

Originally Posted by NKUSigEp

Interesting terminology

But as a buyer, how can I prove that someone knowingly sold me a fake - as in the seller had an idea but just didn't voice it at any time (I'm not a mind-reader btw)?

And this goes back to my previous point - a buyer can go back to a seller claiming fraud if it is a fake. But a seller can't go back to the buyer and demand the item back or more money for it.

Oh, I don't know about proof and legalities... I was talking more about my own concience...

[gottawalk]

Originally Posted by rfclef

If I have a bass that is a Blick, and I sell it as a Blick: Good.
If I have a bass that I truelly believe is a Blick but is not and I sell it as a Blick: Honest mistake (which could still come back to bite me, but no fraud).
If I have a bass I suspect might not be a Blick, but I sell it as a Blick without disclosing my suspicions to the buyerand it turns out it is not a Blick: fraud. If I tell the buyer what I think and he buys it anyhow: Good wether it is a blick or not.
If I have a bass I know is a Fake Blick, and sell it as a Real Blick: Fraud.
If I have a bass I know is a Fake Blick, and sell it as a Fake Blick, or Blickenbetter, or Redinbacher, or labeled as a Blick Tribute, or Blick Copy, or Carmen Miranda: Good.

There's a nail out there with a sore head right about now...

[CharlesHartman]

From the Oxford American Dictionaries...

Fraud - 1) Wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain. 2) A person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities.

+1 to what Gottawalk said.