What made Motown great?

[tranceFusion]

I have recently started to be more interested in Motown. One of the things that I find most interesting is how they were able to pump out hit after hit that appealed to both mainstream audiences, as well as other musicians (unlike, say, the boy bands of today). I think most people would say that the music is genuinely good, and is showing that it can stand the test of time.

So why doesn't this happen today? (or am I just not recognizing it?)

What do you attribute to the success? How were they able to pull together so many great talents so quickly and get them engaged enough to be so prolific? I am sure the short list of producers, writers, and backing musicians helps, but how did Gordy even manage to pull such a tight-knit group of talented people together?

Maybe I am downplaying the amount of time and effort it took to build this empire?

I am interested in opinions and pointers towards any resources that may help me understand. Thanks

[Lonnybass]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

I have recently started to be more interested in Motown. One of the things that I find most interesting is how they were able to pump out hit after hit that appealed to both mainstream audiences, as well as other musicians (unlike, say, the boy bands of today). I think most people would say that the music is genuinely good, and is showing that it can stand the test of time.

So why doesn't this happen today? (or am I just not recognizing it?)

What do you attribute to the success? How were they able to pull together so many great talents so quickly and get them engaged enough to be so prolific? I am sure the short list of producers, writers, and backing musicians helps, but how did Gordy even manage to pull such a tight-knit group of talented people together?

Maybe I am downplaying the amount of time and effort it took to build this empire?

I am interested in opinions and pointers towards any resources that may help me understand. Thanks

Go rent the movie "Standing in the Shadows of Motown" and it will all begin to make sense to you, my friend.

My take - and you'll see this in the movie - is that you had 10 to 15 guys literally sitting together with their instruments in a circle in the basement of the house (Hitsville USA), all working off of each other's lines and grooves, hour after hour for years.

Lonnybass

[JTE]

Well, it wasn't just the Funk Bros. It was Holland/Dozier/Hollan, The Corporation, Smokey Robinson, et. al. writing great pop songs. And the musicians who KNEW that the SONG was not the same as the RECORDING, a fact lost on so many people these days. So they could record the same song for different artists and get the song across in different ways (e.g. "Heard It Through The Grapevine" by Gladys Knight and by Marvin Gaye).

And singers who could flat out SING, and sing together.

But it starts with the songs.

John

[NickyBass]

Well, if the boy bands had Chuck Rainey on bass, Steve Gadd on drums and Herbie on keys, AND if they could actually sing, then I would probably listen to them.

[DeluxeRed]

John nailed it--it was great songwriting. And, even though it was a business, the music came first. It wasn't all about posturing or image. Though the business end is what finally killed it.

My "desert island" playlist would be mostly Motown. It just holds up.

There is maybe some current songwriters finding musicians that can pull that kind of vision together. But you won't find them in the top 40 anymore, so you'll have to look hard. Big Bidness doesn't like having to rely on actual talent--the risk is too great.

[WalterBush]

It was the songwriting. They also had a successful business model, but mostly, it was the songwriting.

[KJung]

It's ALWAYS the songwriting IMO.

That's why it is so amazing to hear, for example, a James Taylor or Jackson Browne solo performance. The songs are SO strong you literally don't miss the band, production, backup singers, etc. (as good as they are).

[VroomVroom]

Standing in the Shadows.... As great as the movie is - and it is GREAT - I really recommend the book. It's a great read, which really covers a lot of the songwriting, arranging, and performing tidbits. One of my favorites: Stevie Wonder wrote a piece, and couldn't find any inspiration for it, and gave it to Smokey Robinson. Bada boom. "Tears for a Clown" was born. The stories about HDH are almost as good as the, "Where's Jamerson?" and "Just wow, Gordy was a rat bastahd" ones. Again, just an excellent read, and we haven't even gotten to all of the bass part transcriptions that are included. Talk about perpetual lessons in inspiration and humility.

I watch the movie frequently (if for no other reason than to watch Bootsy sing "Land of a Thousand Dances"!), but the book is a constant resource for information and inspiration.

[Clark Dark]

+ 10 on getting the book...I like the Diego Diegerson story myself..but as alluded to, the fact that they gave each artist their own distinctive sound. The Four Tops music was given a different flavor than the Temptations music, which was given a different flavor than Smokey Robinson and the Miracles music. The Marvelettes given a flavor different than the Supremes, Marvin Gaye etc. etc. across the board. And on the cassette that came with my book it was stated "the producers used to bring Jamerson the charts, but he would throw them down saying "you trying to tell me what to play" ? " and he had that carte blanche. Nick and Valerie aka Ashford & Simpson used to complain but in the end what James did was better than what they wanted.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

I have recently started to be more interested in Motown. One of the things that I find most interesting is how they were able to pump out hit after hit that appealed to both mainstream audiences, as well as other musicians (unlike, say, the boy bands of today). I think most people would say that the music is genuinely good, and is showing that it can stand the test of time.

So why doesn't this happen today? (or am I just not recognizing it?)

What do you attribute to the success? How were they able to pull together so many great talents so quickly and get them engaged enough to be so prolific? I am sure the short list of producers, writers, and backing musicians helps, but how did Gordy even manage to pull such a tight-knit group of talented people together?

Maybe I am downplaying the amount of time and effort it took to build this empire?

I am interested in opinions and pointers towards any resources that may help me understand. Thanks

i have an old album of aretha franklin at 16 singing gospel.......i think the thing with the motown vocalists was that they all knew how to sing and had put in their time before they started at motown........a lot of singers in pop seem to think that talent alone buys an exemption from all the hard work that goes into it.....jamerson was an accomplished player before motown,and most of the talent there probably could say the same.....take a look at those old beach movies....when stevie wonder was little stevie wonder

[DWBass]

+1 to all the above.

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by JTE

Well, it wasn't just the Funk Bros. It was Holland/Dozier/Hollan, The Corporation, Smokey Robinson, et. al. writing great pop songs. And the musicians who KNEW that the SONG was not the same as the RECORDING, a fact lost on so many people these days. So they could record the same song for different artists and get the song across in different ways (e.g. "Heard It Through The Grapevine" by Gladys Knight and by Marvin Gaye).

And singers who could flat out SING, and sing together.

But it starts with the songs.

John

But how did was it that so many great songwriters, producers, singers, musicians, etc. were brought together and worked so well, for so long?

Perhaps their compensation was such that they had to continue to work hard? Today often when an artist makes it, they get paid, and don't bother to put in the hard work any more..

I am sure songwriters played a big part, but many of these songs hold up very well on their own, and I just don't believe Jamerson was sitting there reading lines all the time..

[P. Aaron]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

But how did was it that so many great songwriters, producers, singers, musicians, etc. were brought together and worked so well, for so long?

Perhaps their compensation was such that they had to continue to work hard? Today often when an artist makes it, they get paid, and don't bother to put in the hard work any more..

I am sure songwriters played a big part, but many of these songs hold up very well on their own, and I just don't believe Jamerson was sitting there reading lines all the time..

Good writing, good music, great playing, good and thoughtful engineering and excellent leadership. So many elements in the right place...for a brief moment.

There's no single thing...it just was.

[Caca de Kick]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

But how did was it that so many great songwriters, producers, singers, musicians, etc. were brought together and worked so well, for so long?

While the songwriting was the biggie, the other thing was after the songs were completed, a separate critic panel listened to the songs to see if they were worthy of releasing.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

So why doesn't this happen today? (or am I just not recognizing it?)

What do you attribute to the success? How were they able to pull together so many great talents so quickly and get them engaged enough to be so prolific? I am sure the short list of producers, writers, and backing musicians helps, but how did Gordy even manage to pull such a tight-knit group of talented people together?

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

But how did was it that so many great songwriters, producers, singers, musicians, etc. were brought together and worked so well, for so long?

You're asking a whole bunch of different questions at once...

Yes, it was excellent songwriting. But more fundamentally, there was a certain chemistry, backed up and supported by a very tight Motown subculture that existed at that time & place. And yes, it was Berry Gordy's singular vision and hands-on (at times overbearing) management style that was able to harness the power of that culture and chemistry to get results.

IMO, the reason why this is so difficult to replicate today, is because so many of the key, intangible components of a tight, highly-collaborative chemistry and subculture have simply gone by the wayside. The music business has always been venal, predatory and ruthless. Since the heyday of Motown, it has simply become even more so - and much more upfront about it...

MM

[JTE]

Like KJung said, it's ALWAYS the songwriting. I'm a bit confused by the seeming dichotomy in " am sure songwriters played a big part, but many of these songs hold up very well on their own..." That's exactly my point. Great songwriters write great songs. And great songs hold up under different recordings, productions, etc. I keep harping and get flamed for saying that the SONG is NOT the record.

Stuff like "... Grapevine" holds up as a song that endures. "Stairway to Heaven" is only a great recording, but the song fails unless it's either the original iconic recording OR a dead-on totaly aping of that recording. Why? Because the SONG can't stand all on its own.

As to why there was this amalgamation of talent for one company? Because for all the crap Barry Gordy deserves, he had the vision, the cash, and the cajones to make it happen. And he BUILT a stable of great musicians, singers, songwriters, and producers. They worked together as a team to make the very best pop records to sell. I think another aspect of it is that they knew (and the business has changed a LOT since then, largely because of Motown in fact) that together they could be more succesful than separate. Towards the end Holland/Dozier/Holland were able to go out and sell songs to others, and Berry was distracted by trying to become a movie mogul, and singers found that based on their Motown success they could get attractive offers from other record labels. So things started fragmenting.


", and I just don't believe Jamerson was sitting there reading lines all the time.." He wasn't. He read, he'd play in the string section, he'd come up with his own parts, he'd take a a part hummed to him by Smokey and turn it into something else. The Funk Bros had a huge impact on why Motown was succesfu. When asked to define the "Motown Sound", Dianna Ross said "it always started wtih the bass". But the greatest bass line with the hippest cat's playing on the record won't create long-term succes. You gotta have a song and a singer who can put it across.

John

[etoncrow]

One word: Talent

[Caca de Kick]

Watch the 'Standing in the Shadows' movie.
My guitarist, a definite metalhead who didn't know any music existed before 1986, watched the movie and was absolutely floored!

[tranceFusion]

Originally Posted by JTE

I'm a bit confused by the seeming dichotomy in " am sure songwriters played a big part, but many of these songs hold up very well on their own..." That's exactly my point. Great songwriters write great songs.

Sorry, I misspoke..

What I meant was, the songs stand very well without vocals and lyrics.

I am not sure what the process for writing the instrumental portions of the songs was but I am assuming that Jamerson wasn't just sitting there reading a chart.. especially due to the vastly different interpretations on different recordings. And the songs are relatively straightforward in terms of chord progressions and structure. So I am making an assumption that this terrific songwriting comes in the form of a collective of alot of different people.

I'll check out the movie

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

But how did was it that so many great songwriters, producers, singers, musicians, etc. were brought together and worked so well, for so long?...

IIRC, it wasn't really a long time . . . more like 15 years or so . . . early 60's through the middle of the 70's . . .