Why the bass community is hurting itself.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by nukes_da_bass

The OP has scarcity on his side. The carpetbagger who assumed everything is a fire sale was mistaken.
If the Carpetbagger "must" have an Alembic of that model, chances are he will have to come up to the OPs price.

I might suggest that you look up the term carpetbagger. You're using in wrong...........

[Febs]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

Mizzou you explained the race to zero perfectly. You will price it under value to eliminate your competition. Then the next guy does it, and the next...

This is not a race to zero. It's a race to point of price equilibrium, which is where the demand is equal to the available supply. Once you hit that point, there is no further downward pressure on prices because there is sufficient demand for both you and your competition to sell their products at that price.

[TRichardsbass]

No not a race to price equilibrium. Even in situations where demand outstrips supply you can see this effect.

Snow shovels in winter. In my area when it snows often the shovels sell out quick. That should raise the price of available shovels but it does not. In most places here you will see those with shovels drop the price even though people need them and the number needeing them far outstrips the supply. The stores want to capture the demand so they lower price to beat the competition and clean out the remaining inventory.

So the price for shovels continues down. Until the point where the profit is gone and then they stop stocking shovels. Race to zero.

This is not to say that people will not pay for quality but the disposable mindset of the digital generation has skewed the definition of what is value and what has value.

People marvel at my Edison, one of the few original record players. I saved for years to get it and treasure it. It will last and play for at least another century and when the power was out with the hurricane I was the only one with music. It was boutique in its day compared to the Victrola. Value.

Most people view all possesions including their homes as disposable which changes the game and also how an economist would think about market equilibrium. There will always be someone out there to undercut to capture the demand. So there will not ever be equilibrium.

Dont believe me? Check out any of the threads on what bar bands are getting paid. There are so many hobbyists out there that they will play for little to nothing at the local club so what a real band asks becomes too much.

In 1983 I made $300 a night with an average talent coverband. Today those same type of band is lucky to get $300 a night for the entire band. Its not about supply and demand as most hobbyist bands could not even come close to the talent we displayed. But even the great bands are effected by the crap guys. Race to zero. And it is just like high end vs. SX. SX will not replace boutiques but it will drive price lower. In a few years Spector, Tobias, Kubicki, Wickersham, Turner, and even Sadowsky will be retiring and those brands will quickly fade away. Why? Because you could not buy a company like those and make enough profit to live on. Those guys have long paid for the investment before the digital age so overhead is much less. Why do you think Fender needed the IPO? Why do you think Bain cant make GC really work? Race to zero.

It is a mind set we all must live with. The more I write here the more I think I will hold the rest of my basses so that when people come to my studio and cry that they cant find any of the "good" stuff at the local shops I can point to mine and tell them the story of the race to zero.

[5StringFool]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

People marvel at my Edison, one of the few original record players. I saved for years to get it and treasure it. It will last and play for at least another century and when the power was out with the hurricane I was the only one with music. It was boutique in its day compared to the Victrola. Value.

It may be "value" to you, but not to me. There is no way I would spend that much time and effort to save for an Edison (even though I do think they're cool). There are other things I see more much benefit in having.

Value is arbitrary and judged only by the individual discretion of the consumer if you want to get to the brass tacks of it.

[dougjwray]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

I think a funny side thought on my rant is that I see posted here a billion times that many of the guys here always want to try it before they buy it. Well, with the way the buying public is becoming interwebbed, I think soon enough we will start to see posts here with complaints that they can't find what they want in the stores and they don't want to buy without touching it. I will tell you that most retailers, even the bigger ones, are much less likely to take on new stock or new lines because of the margin and overhead in stores and the tough competition with internet only businesses. Yes, its a tough world, but there are very few ways a brick and mortar can compete when it comes to guitars. They get the same basic costs as an e-tailer, but have higher overheads.

Customer service is normally where it makes a difference, but most people no longer care about customer service so long as its not horrible. If you buy over the web, you essentially have no customer service anyway.

I know I'm never going to change the world with my thoughts, but maybe I can open the dialog. I mean, I don't want to hear about how little you got in trade for your Subaru and how little value it has when your thought process is deal of the day.

Get used to paying shipping and a restock charge then.

Bass Emporium closed its brick and mortar. He will be web only, but I am sure John will probably be even closing that out.

I think I posted my own rant about this within the last year.
I'm one of those guys who likes to try instruments before I buy, and I'm worried about the brick & mortar stores dying. Just in the last couple of years, I've noticed a distinct trend where a big store like Sam Ash is carrying less and less good stuff, and more and more things like Squier starter packs and cheap Ibanez basses. Why? Because so many people would come in, try something nice, and then leave and seek a better price online.
I understand everything about the free market system, but certain internet effects are troubling to me.
A few months ago, I had a conversation with an acquaintance who's a salesman at a fancy car dealership in Greenwich, CT (a wealthy town). He told me that all of the fun's gone out of his job. Before, he'd love showing customers different cars and helping them find a good match. It allowed him to demonstrate his knowledge, plus he's a "people person" and the human interaction was satisfying. Now, customers do all of their research online and simply come in, point to the car of their choice, and say, "I want that one. How much is it?"
You see this all the time on TB, where (presumably) younger people basically ask us more experienced folks to choose an instrument for them, so that they can order online. We customarily answer, "Try out every one in the store, and see what you like." In the near future, their reaction to our answer will be: Store? Try out?
I don't know what the solution is. It's more than an economic issue... it's about major societal change.

[One Drop]

It might be a race to the bottom for some, but there will always be quality options, and many ways to spend your money at the top and in between. Look at all the options available now, from dirt cheap decent quality to boutique and custom offerings. Where's the big tragedy? I don't see it.

The housing market in the US is a result of the aftermath of a giant bubble that was caused by easy credit and unsustainable policy of economic growth partly based on wealth Création through property values increasing. It's not a cultural or social trend, it's simple economics.

I do agree we have become a culture of conspicuous consumption of largely disposable goods, but I don't see this in any way reflected in or represented by the used bass market.

[Febs]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

No not a race to price equilibrium. Even in situations where demand outstrips supply you can see this effect.

Snow shovels in winter. In my area when it snows often the shovels sell out quick. That should raise the price of available shovels but it does not. In most places here you will see those with shovels drop the price even though people need them and the number needeing them far outstrips the supply. The stores want to capture the demand so they lower price to beat the competition and clean out the remaining inventory.

So the price for shovels continues down. Until the point where the profit is gone and then they stop stocking shovels. Race to zero.

I don't think that I have ever seen a store lower the price of snow shovels to "capture demand" when a storm is approaching. That is not economically rational behavior.

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

Dont believe me? Check out any of the threads on what bar bands are getting paid. There are so many hobbyists out there that they will play for little to nothing at the local club so what a real band asks becomes too much.

In 1983 I made $300 a night with an average talent coverband. Today those same type of band is lucky to get $300 a night for the entire band. Its not about supply and demand as most hobbyist bands could not even come close to the talent we displayed. But even the great bands are effected by the crap guys.

That's actually another perfect example of market forces in action, and it has everything to do with supply and demand. In that case, pay is low because the available supply far exceeds the demand, and because the product--whether we like to admit it or not--is a commodity from the perspective of the purchaser.

[dougjwray]

Originally Posted by Febs

I don't think that I have ever seen a store lower the price of snow shovels to "capture demand" when a storm is approaching. That is not economically rational behavior.

Agreed. Usually, the price of snow shovels will double when the first flakes fall.
However, if you have a Home Depot on one block, and a Lowes on the next, the two places might use discounting to get more people into their own store to buy the shovels. (Competition 101.)

[pickles]

Guitar center is the problem, not internet. When LA bass exchange was in business, i bought all my gear new from them. I got great advice from pro players, got to try awesome gear, then order. I was happy to pay those prices.

I am not willing to buy a $3000 bass from a guitar center staffed by 20 year olds with no clue, where gear has been treated poorly , and the vibe is soul sucking commerce and used car style sales. The internet is WAY better than guitar center.

[zfunkman]

Any bass is only worth what anyone will pay for it. High end basses are just harder to sell. My 2009 Fender American Standard J Bass cost $1000 and plays much better than the 75 Vintage Fender J Bass I played that cost $2500.

[TRichardsbass]

Exactly. The market forces are no longer rational which is the root of my rant.

And yes I did actually see the local Walmaet drop the snow shovel price during our big Nor Easter that dumped 12" of snow here. LOWES across the street didnt move one shovel after that. Not rational with supply and demand but different irrational thought. Walmart sold out its inventory for less. Capture the entire demand.

The supply of good bands is low. The supply of bands that draw even lower. But as you said it is a commodity to them. However a rational market would pay the fair price for the good band that draws not cheapen the pay so much that good bands no longer exist. Race to zero.

Ever notice how few cover bands are younger? Not only is the market for music changing but the only people who can afford to be a band are those with decent incomes already. Meaning the old guys.

When one of the best bands I know loses a club because they are seriously underbid it kills me. Even when that club realizes its mistake they still offer less to get them back. Most of the time they decline but at some point if you want to play for pay you have to give. Resets the perceived price for a good band. Race to zero. Oh and this band is talking about ending the band because they now need day jobs to pay the bills.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by dougjwray

You see this all the time on TB, where (presumably) younger people basically ask us more experienced folks to choose an instrument for them, so that they can order online. We customarily answer, "Try out every one in the store, and see what you like." In the near future, their reaction to our answer will be: Store? Try out?

Actually it's even more than that. They not only want us to select an instrument for them, they also want us to spoon feed them with answers to every conceivable question they might ever have (i.e. rigs, strings, technique, setup, effects, etc.), so that they never have to experience any learning by trial & error. I guess they find it easier to just "get the answers" from someone else, rather than to find out by actually doing it for themselves - not unlike copying the answers to an exam from the "smart kid" seated nearby, rather than doing one's homework.

A cultural issue? Yeah, it's a cultural issue all right - and apparently a generational (*cough*slackers*cough*) issue as well. I'm often tempted to adopt a strict "no noobs" policy - except I feel sorry for the more earnest noobs who take responsibility for their own learning.

/pet peeve

MM

[zfunkman]

Originally Posted by pickles

Guitar center is the problem, not internet. When LA bass exchange was in business, i bought all my gear new from them. I got great advice from pro players, got to try awesome gear, then order. I was happy to pay those prices.

I am not willing to buy a $3000 bass from a guitar center staffed by 20 year olds with no clue, where gear has been treated poorly , and the vibe is soul sucking commerce and used car style sales. The internet is WAY better than guitar center.

Yes, I could not agree with you more! I posted yesterday that we need to boycott GC and for the most I got blasted. The GC monopoly is hurting the music community in the long run. I remember in OC, CA there used to be Sightsinger Music, Frontier Music, California Music and Jim's Music. Since GC seems to be taking over everywhere only Jim's has survived and is where I shop.

[Engine207]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

...not unlike copying the answers to an exam from the "smart kid" seated nearby, rather than doing one's homework.

I got into college because of that kid...

[dougjwray]

Originally Posted by zfunkman

Yes, I could not agree with you more! I posted yesterday that we need to boycott GC and for the most I got blasted. The GC monopoly is hurting the music community in the long run. I remember in OC, CA there used to be Sightsinger Music, Frontier Music, California Music and Jim's Music. Since GC seems to be taking over everywhere only Jim's has survived and is where I shop.

About 10 years ago, there was a great little independent video rental store in my town. The owner was a film freak, so that if he saw that you were renting a movie starring Grace Kelly (for example) he would get excited and say, "Ah! I see you like Grace Kelly! Have you seen THESE other Grace Kelly films?" It was fantastic.
Inevitably, a Blockbuster moved in, literally on the same block. (I mean, actually on the same block.) Within a few months, the little place was gone. Blockbuster had many fewer titles, but more copies of "Titanic", or whatever, and, of course, your average Joe was happier there. For clerks, Blockbuster had the proverbial teenagers who knew nothing about what was being sold.
Eventually, Blockbuster itself was done in by Netflix. Why deal with even a know-nothing clerk when you can never leave your couch and still get the films you ask for?
Now, there are internet attempts to replace the function of the expert at the little store. For example: Pandora. "If you like Jimi Hendrix, you must like Jeff Beck." But I don't use Pandora, for this reason: Jimi Hendrix might inspire me to listen to Thelonious Monk. Or gnawa music from northern Africa. Or Bob Dylan. With someone like the guy at the little video store, you can have a conversation: "Actually, it's not Grace Kelly I'm after, it's the cinematographer who did this movie. Can you help me out there?" "Oh, sure... [etc.]"

End of rant...

[UncleFluffy]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

Exactly. The market forces are no longer rational which is the root of my rant.

Maybe they are rational and that is the problem? Short-sighted, possibly, but hyper-rational.

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

And yes I did actually see the local Walmaet drop the snow shovel price during our big Nor Easter that dumped 12" of snow here. LOWES across the street didnt move one shovel after that. Not rational with supply and demand

Depends on whether you're looking at supply of shovels or supply of floor space in the store. Once you've sold all your shovels you can sell something else. Dollars per square foot per hour ...

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

The supply of good bands is low. The supply of bands that draw even lower. But as you said it is a commodity to them. However a rational market would pay the fair price for the good band that draws not cheapen the pay so much that good bands no longer exist. Race to zero.

Then maybe a key question is "why is live music treated as a commodity?" Why is it so hard for a bar owner to differentiate between band A and band B?

[northernmonkey]

I much prefer the new, open, market.

As a noob, I can check on my phone and find out if im getting a good deal, or being take for a ride. I can get opinions before I buy stuff I know nothing about. This is a good thing for me, rather than risk being sold the old crap thats been in the shop for ages, who they try and shift onto the FNG.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by CraigTB

I don't know about all that. The internet's pretty awesome. Remember the old days when buying a TV and you'd have to either punt and cross your fingers or wait for the print version of Consumer Reports with TV reviews to come out?

No thanks!

The Internet is indeed an awesome thing. Had it been available when I was 20 years old (the year I began to play bass), I would have been all over it.

I'm simply establishing that some kinds of knowledge can be gained by simple research or hearsay - be it online or offline - while other kinds of knowledge must be gained by personal application and personal experience...or at least it is greatly preferable that way. Trying to learn your lessons vicariously, solely by taking advantage of the work other people have done, is not only annoying to them, but ultimately cheats the shortcut-taker as well.

Originally Posted by CraigTB

And if you don't like people, beginners included, asking questions about all aspects of bass playing, it kind of begs the question - well what the heck are you doing hanging around here?

I never said I don't like people to ask questions. I qualified my remarks quite precisely in my previous post, I thought. So I don't feel the need to restate them here.

I do try to give back according to my own knowledge & experience, limited though it is. But how do you explain something to someone who doesn't even have a frame of reference for the kind of information you're trying to convey...because he's too timid or lazy to even attempt to gain the experience for himself? It's like trying to describe the view of a beautiful sunset - to someone who's never even opened his eyes!

MM

[obimark]

Risk- Reward-Risk Reward- That is all life is really about in the end.
Look at the few, VERY few that make it playing music... They took a big risk, IE that they would not be flipping burgers when they are 35 since they had no schooling etc. But for those that do make it, the reward can be colossal.

Same with basses- I have never understood the allure of these "boutique" basses- For my $$ and ears my MIA P-Bass plays as well, sounds just as good and is worth the money. Will it sell for what I paid new, no, but neither does a car either, you drive it off the lot it jsut lost anywhere from $2000-4000 right then and there.

I have played and sold a lot of gear in my time, and do not think I ever made more than I bought it for, EVER. But most of it sold for within 85% of what I paid so as long as I got some use out of for 6- month or more, I basically consider it a try-out tax.

[BlueTalon]

Originally Posted by BawanaRik

Whippet?

Borzoi. Nice guess though.