Why the bass community is hurting itself.

[mbelue]

The OP doesn't want to sell for less than they believe is a fair value. This is true across all goods in a free market. You don't ever have to lower your price. At no point does anyone have to buy either. A sale is an agreement between two consenting parties. If one of them doesn't consent, they can walk away. The example buyer the OP referred to didn't do anyone a disservice, sounds like they expressed an opinion, however rudely and bluntly.
All values in the used market are based on perceived value. You want more value in you're bass? Convince some hot new rockstar to play one just like it. If you can't convince anyone to buy what you have then it has $0 resale value. Because you didn't resell it.
Sucks you didn't land the first fish to bite, but sometimes you gotta fish awhile and settle for smaller fish if you want to eat.

[nukes_da_bass]

TR is right. This is not bass specific. My "potential" customers call all day and night inquiring as to "the best price I can give them to the airport".
I tell them my best price is the one posted on the rates page of the website. Hundreds of hours of thought and research went into the development of said price, so the driver can turn a buck and the company can gain potential profit.
Most people these days just shop around for the "best price".
Often the "best price" is generated by.a bunch of third world dudes shacking up 15 to a room who are under licensed and under insured.
My best price insures 100% legality.

[danroche]

The reasons stated above are the reasons I LOVE the talkbass forums.

This is a community based on trust. Trust that transactions will be quick, efficient, honest, and without the gamesmanship that can mire Craig's list.

As a result, I tend to sell things lower than I would on the "open" market and bid more aggressively when buying. This "trust" factor has a value to me, and it's incorporated in how I price things for sale and purchase.

I personally LIKE this. It's an honest market. At the same time, I realize it doesn't (or shouldn't) come for free. I might pay $200 for a bass I'd have questions about after I got home. I'd pay $350 for the same bass from a TalkBass trusted seller.

[sevdog]

Originally Posted by danroche

The reasons stated above are the reasons I LOVE the talkbass forums.

This is a community based on trust. Trust that transactions will be quick, efficient, honest, and without the gamesmanship that can mire Craig's list.

As a result, I tend to sell things lower than I would on the "open" market and bid more aggressively when buying. This "trust" factor has a value to me, and it's incorporated in how I price things for sale and purchase.

I personally LIKE this. It's an honest market. At the same time, I realize it doesn't (or shouldn't) come for free. I might pay $200 for a bass I'd have questions about after I got home. I'd pay $350 for the same bass from a TalkBass trusted seller.

Thumb's up.

[Nev375]

You need to look at the other side of the coin too. Without getting into the politics or whys of it, we are still in a recession. A lot of people are out of work, money is tight for most.

There's just not enough raw cash and consumer confidence to fuel the demand. Your bass just isn't worth what it used to be right now.


It's not the bass community's fault. We are not doing anything different than what any other market is forced to do. You can't pin it all on the internet either. If anything, the internet makes it easier for you to connect with that one person who is gassing for your bass and is willing to pay for it. A wider market is equally beneficial to both seller and buyer.

It's just simple economics.

[ronlitz]

Originally Posted by nostatic

Market determines cost. Individuals determine value. There is no "true value.

Concur.

[danroche]

Originally Posted by ronlitz

Concur.

I'd also add that the market itself imposes a bias on "value" due to buyer/seller expectations. I'm trained to assume that Craig's List, for example, has a fair amount of dishonest people. I assume others feel the same way. I can thus assume that when selling on Craig's List, others will assume the same of ME, and impose their own biases (lower offers from buyers, or more circumspect transactions) even if I don't deserve the treatment. It's the poker table at which you choose to play that in large part determines how others will shuffle your deck.

[smcd]

Your potential Alembic-buyer was being too stratightforward. If it were me, I'd give it away before I sold it to him at any price. Still, what he's saying is true. If you want to sell, you have to bring your price down to what the market will bear.


Re. the Guild - welcome to the world of Peavey owners. I marvel at the prices of Peavey gear compared to Fender. A late-80's Dyna bass in excellent condition, with sophisticated active/passive electronics, 100% USA made, is $250 or less. A Fender P-bass of similar vintage is 3-times that price, despite the fact that it's 1/3rd the bass!! But that's the way it is.


I'm 100% on board with the 90's era Jazz Plus models. Killer deals for a smoking bass. But........the reson the prices are that low is that the styling varies too far from that of a traditional Jazz bass. That's the way it goes.

[Bassmunnky]

Originally Posted by ronlitz

Concur.

This is it. Unless you want to ditch Capitalism...it is what it is.

This has been discussed to death in

Sadowsky Threads
Vintage Threads
SX Threads

about perceived value. "We" aren't killing anything. "What the market will bear"...it's that simple.

You read about this in the housing market every damn day. YOU may think your McMansion is worth $686K..but if half of them are empty on your block and the last one sold for $480k..well, there ya go.

[TRichardsbass]

Originally Posted by Joedog

Yes, if you try and sell something, especially on forums or Ebay, good chance you will get low offers (big surprise). I've bought and sold at some very reasonable (you'd maybe say unreasonable?) prices. But the deals got done, and both parties were happy. I also know folks who hold out for top dollar. Once in a while they get it, often, they end up not making a sale. It's your gear, so set your price as you see fit. But don't blame your lack of a sale on others selling "too cheap". Sounds a bit too whiny for my taste (but you brought it up). I guess it's called "market value" for a reason? I'm selling a house for a lot less than I would have thought 10 years ago. Oh well, that's life...ain't gonna cry about it. At least I have a buyer. I have a buddy trying to sell a house (overpriced) for 4 years now, not a nibble. We all have a choice as to sell or not sell.

Not whining about lack of sale, as I will sell when I feel the deal is correct. I was just sort of thinking about the transaction, and the thought process behind it. It is actually closer to your house sale then you think.

As for your house, I also am angry at people who knowingly purchased homes they could not afford, and then when its value supposedly drops they walk away, sticking not only the bank with it but also everyone around them with the crap price it will resell for because the bank doesn't want to hold it. You hurt yourself, and you hurt others, even though you don't think about it that way. The price the bank sells it for is not its value, as they are looking to cut a loss. They also don't have full equity in it either. Usually about 80% or under, so they are looking to sell to cover their cost. So a foreclosure or short sale immediately devalues my home, and not because the house that sold was really worth less, it was just the amount the people had in it.

My home was actually priced below what all of the realtors told me to set it at. And it didn't sell. I had someone look at my home 8 times, in depth. Never made an offer. When we finally got the real answer, it was, "I wanted the house, I liked the house. The price was actually good. But when my realtor told me that the house had been on the market before, and that no one was currently living in it, I figured it would be a short sale or a dump soon enough." She was looking for "the deal." Funny, I wasn't living in it because I was on the road, not because it was vacant. It had been on the market before, when I got divorced, but I decided to buy it off my wife instead. I don't whine about the lack of sale, because my home was aggressively priced, but many of the buyers in my area have been watching foreclosures and short sales.

Nicely, after Hurricane Sandy, that same person who went to my house sooo much, lost her rental to the storm, and she made me a low ball offer on the house. I countered with a much higher price (same demand, many less homes available), she was angry. I then rented the house for about $600 more then her mortgage would have been at the sale price. She got back to me the day after I rented it and offered to pay my price. I told her no, as I had rented it and she waited too long. She played the game too much. She is still looking for a permanent place to live.

Maybe I'm just too old. I remember when you bought that first bass, played it till it was dead, upgraded and fixed it, then saved for a better one. Then did the same, and all along the process your old bass still held some value, as it wasn't "disposable." All the Danelectros and Silvertones were that way. They still hold some value today. But in the way we are going, soon enough a one year old SX will be worth $10, and maybe less, even though it is still worth the $100 it was bought for.

[tastybasslines]

The title, "why the bass community is hurting itself" made me laugh after reading your post.

When it comes to buying and selling, there is no "community", it's business.

I'm glad you feel a sense of loyalty in fighting for an ideal bass community, but it doesn't exist. I don't do favors for people just because they might do the same activity as me.

[Kmonk]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

After looking at that, it became clear to me. The internet economy has destroyed the price of everything, including bass guitars. And we are doing it to ourselves.


.

I disagree. We are not doing it to ourselves. There are two factors which are driving resale prices. The first is the economy as a whole. Many people are concerned about job security and either do not have discretionary income or are not using it for gear. A couple of years ago, people were paying the same price on ebay as they could at a local retailer. When people struggle to pay bills they do not spend as much and prices fall. It's simple supply and demand economics.
The second factor is that too many musicians believe their gear is worth much more than it is. They list something at a high price and hope that they get someone to buy it. They have to realize that in most cases you are lucky to get about 75% of your purchase price when you sell gear.

[xxfaux_punkxx]

Sold a P-bass and 100w amp last year for 150$. Thats 75$ a piece. The amp alone was worth the total price. First guy to call wanted to pay 75$ for both items. I politely told him to piss off. Sold everything a week later at asking price. I'm happy, buyers happy. No harm done.

IME buy used and you get an idea on resale price.

I agree that the internet harms brick and morter business, which makes it hard to test drive something. My current bass I bought off ebay. Its a bass I've wanted for a while but if I had played it first I would have gone to another saler since there were 2-3 available. With discontinued models you're only real hope is sight unseen bought offline.
That being said the web branches out enough to allow you to find that long lost bass instead of the good enough one you only find localy.


Its a double edged sword.

[mbelue]

TRichard, I mean no disrespect but you are still confusing sentimental value with actual value. The sale of unregulated used items determines their value. No sale no value.
You can go around making points to people all day, but you going you have to do it while carrying that Alembic.

[TRichardsbass]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

The title, "why the bass community is hurting itself" made me laugh after reading your post.

When it comes to buying and selling, there is no "community", it's business.

I'm glad you feel a sense of loyalty in fighting for an ideal bass community, but it doesn't exist. I don't do favors for people just because they might do the same activity as me.

I agree, but I figured the title would draw a few more in.

Yes, its business, and this is really more then about the bass community. But I think its something people do need to consider when they get an offer from someone that is in the realm. It doesn't really hurt you to pay, say $400 for that Randy Jackson Pink Peavey in amazing condition, even though you can get it for $350 if youy wait another 60 days. Like another poster said, the internet shows the price of things, and if you tend to pay a fair price, it will factor in yours, so when you go to sell that RJ instead of having to ask $275 for it, you might be able to ask $325.

Either way, most people are not TBers. TB classifieds almost always yields happiness on both sides of the transaction. It is, an "honest" market, not driven by the internet like other things. And I have paid more then I should, and less then I should here too. I'm not a saint.

My rant isn't about what I will or won't get for my Alembic, its more about the selling dynamic and a thought process I knew existed but thought was moderate in our "community." I mean, you are NEVER going to see an Alembic on Hello Music Deal of the Day. So why would you assume that any seller is using that thought process?

I could sell my Alembic for a very "aggressive" price and still be good with my transaction, as I have been careful in putting together other transactions. But just because I can sell it for the aggressive price, doesn't mean I should sell it for that.

I DO value the efforts and time of Ron Wickersham and crew. I don't want to devalue his brand that way. Maybe I'm just an idiot. But I do value good, true craftsmanship, and will do my darndest not to lose him in the process.

[Kryptos]

Both sellers and buyers act in their own self interest. The intersection of interests in opposition define "value" or "market price".

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

I could sell my Alembic for a very "aggressive" price and still be good with my transaction, as I have been careful in putting together other transactions. But just because I can sell it for the aggressive price, doesn't mean I should sell it for that.

I DO value the efforts and time of Ron Wickersham and crew. I don't want to devalue his brand that way. Maybe I'm just an idiot. But I do value good, true craftsmanship, and will do my darndest not to lose him in the process.

My time is worth money. I price aggressively to take that into account. You should sell your bass for whatever you want. Or try to. As for devaluing the brand - that is a bit of a self-important attitude but run with it if it makes you happy. My relationship with the builder can take a variety of forms depending on the details of the purchase. If you value them, then buy another new instrument from them. Selling a used instrument at an aggressive price isn't going to drive down their reputation or value - only the amount of money in your pocket.

[TRichardsbass]

Originally Posted by mbelue

TRichard, I mean no disrespect but you are still confusing sentimental value with actual value. The sale of unregulated used items determines their value. No sale no value.
You can go around making points to people all day, but you going you have to do it while carrying that Alembic.

No, not sentimental value. Not real value. There was another post here that put it perfectly, where he said the price of the Alembic is being driven by the price of the SX, I think he used a reference to 15 slaves in a one room hovel in another country.

Which has always been my point, we are raising a generation of people who do not know "value" only "price." Like the people who think quantity=quality. I had a bottle of that crud that P. Diddy was selling as premium alcohol. Crap. I go to clubs where kids will pay $300 for a bottle of Laird's Vodka for a nightclub table with curtains. The rockstar experience to them is "value" even though its not, because they cannot actually tell that for $300 they could have bought two of the best bottles of scotch around and had the same party with more fun. Value is something more tangible, but we have allowed it to be just a price.

We allow a name on a product make it "valuable" even if its made my naked monkeys in the rainforest for nothing. Even if its actual physical quality is beyond bad.

As for the recession, that is why PBR is $3 a glass in the bar. The economy is NOT why so many things are sooo cheap. Consumption overall is actually up. It is the fact that most will want to buy something inferior just to say they have it, and will also buy something over priced to say the same.

This is not a Sadowsky vs. SX debate. There is great value in a Sadowsky. What price someone pays is market driven, but its "value" everyone concedes is good or great. I have purchased wood furniture from a local guy because it will last a lifetime and it was a good value. It wasn't a bad price either, but I did pay more then the Indonesian made table that is similar. Value.

Back to economics, yes, I'm thoroughly schooled in that. I don't sell anything that I don't think I am happy or good with. I mean, an Alembic is a great bass, great maker, great overall. There are many here on TB who probably wish they had the Alembic. So if I keep it, I keep it. To me it really was more astonished about the guy who wanted the bass and even said it was a good price, but just couldn't bring himself to buy it because it wasn't "deal of the day."

Interesting though, some of the ideas people have posted.

[smcd]

I like Hello Music. A lot. I bought a 60th anniversary Pbass there for $350 dollars less than every other on-line retailer. I called all of them for a price match, too. And they wouldn't do it. If I were to sell that bass today, I'd probably lose, at most, $250 on my purchase price. Compare that to losing $600 if I bought it from Musician's Friend or Sweetwater. That's a ton of money!

Hello Music has better return policies than most retialers, better warranties, and prices on new gear the major cutthroat dealers won't touch. Why would anyone even think of boycotting them!

[Duuuuuuuuuude]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

No, not my point. I don't sell if I don't get what I believe is a true or good value. Just the thought process that is killing true value. And no, true value is not always set by "what the market will bear." Because today, the market can actually "bear" more then they will pay, because they are used to electronics, phones, TV's and other stuff that drops to nothing in a year because it is replaced by something that does exponentially more.

Bass guitars are not that way. Same basic function, same sound. When we, the buyers, are treating basses like your laptop, we hurt ourselves.

What I'm having trouble seeing in your theory is that, aside from the used bass you're selling, you don't really offer any other value.

Buying from you is not the same as buying from my local music shop. You don't offer any guarantees. I can't bring the bass by your place a couple weeks later to have you make adjustments. You're not helping me choose the best instrument for my needs. You don't have any other basses for me to choose from. There's probably a dozen other small but not insignificant things that add to the value I get by supporting my local music store. And I'm willing to pay extra from the local guy for that. Online, it's a different story. If I buy used from you online it really is just an exchange of goods for money and there's thousand of other people for me to buy from. So it comes down to price.

There's an old business adage that says: If you don't differentiate yourself from your competitor, you have to compete with them on price. So in your used Alembic case, I do believe it does comes down to what the market will bear.

And as someone else said, I mean no disrespect. I think this is a healthy discussion