Why the bass community is hurting itself.

[nostatic]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

Correction. LIST FOR THIS BASS IS NOW $6400!

Moot point. Some brands have used prices that will track somewhat with inflation, most don't. And as you know, the rule of thumb is "retail for retail, wholesale for wholesale." Though niche products don't always follow the rules in either direction.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

My conversation with the potential Alembic buyer pretty much said, that if no one buys it, and you are selling it, you will continue to lower your price until it is "cheap" enough. The word "cheap' blew my mind. He was actually waiting until I would give it away. He actually said that my bass was at a very good price, but if it didn't sell on eBay he "knew I would start to lower the price much more because I wanted to get rid of it." Which, of course, is not the case, but it was his entire thought process.

Now don't get me wrong, there is no problem in someone looking to buy something at a certain price point, and only buying if they get it there. That to me is fine. But it was the notion that he thinks that like your iPhone or other electronics the price just always goes down until its worth nothing. It is that thought process that is also making it hard for him or any of us to buy and sell, as most of us rely on selling something we have to buy the next. And if you continually race to zero, you continually devalue it, then the asset you need to sell to buy will also be worth nothing.

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

I am not saying pay more then its worth just for price sake. I am saying that, if the price is good, and you want it and you can afford it, think twice about waiting a guy out. In the end, its hurting you more then the guy selling it.

I've said it here before, its a new world and there are a lot of things I don't like about it. But this "I should be able to have everything I want no matter what at my price point" mentality is just really driving many things the wrong way.

Boy, you just said a mouthful, Tom! I feel entirely the same way...and have felt that way for a good long time now.

When I go shopping for something I want or need, I generally know what it's worth before I begin. When I find one at a competitive price that I can comfortably afford, that's good enough for me: I buy it, I use it, I enjoy it. End of story.

When I'm on the selling end, I expect similar behavior from buyers - but too seldom see it. In particular, I have zero patience with the douchebag who can't recognize a great bargain when it's right in front of his nose - or even if he can, is still determined to squeeze the very last dollar of concession out of me that he possibly can. At some point, it ceases to be about business...and morphs into some kind of twisted personal competition.

By the way, in my experience this entire mindset has deeply penetrated even the labor market: I can't tell you how many dopes here in New York City have tried to play hardball with me in compensation negotiations, trying not just to obtain my services on the cheap, but down-in-the-dirt cheap. It's extremely insulting. More than a few times, I've simply walked away - but what I've really wanted to say is: "This whole 'trying to get something for nothing' thing...Has it ever really worked for you? In any facet of your life"?

MM

[qervo]

I hear ya buddy. What I can't stand is when I try to trade a Very Nice Bass for another ( expecting to even pay a little cash on too) and the store manager looks on eBay and says "well somebody in Ohio just listed the same bass for half of what your asking so I gotta go by that price". Immediately my 3000 dollar "near mint" bass is worth 1500 because some wife sold her husbands bass on eBay during a divorce.
Well I'm not sure about the divorce , but you get what I'm saying.. It's the same thing with real estate . You're trying to sell your 300,000 house , but your neighbor sold his for 150,000 . Now everyone wants your house for the same dirt cheap price

[armybass]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

@pickles

List-$5500
My eBay price-$2200 free shipping
My Alembic forum price-$2000 shipped
His price-$800 plus shipping

And mine really is NOS.

Most Alembic Epics sell for around $1600 so I have no idea where he got his idea. And mine is an Excel. Ibthink mine is the only one for sale on the web in the world.

I am just amazed at the way his head works and even more how this is becoming prevelent.

Oh hell, why didn't ya say so man....anyone thinking they can get a Alembic for $800 is a flake....I wouldn't have thought twice about his delusional offer. Keep your bass and tell him to pound sand.

[BlueTalon]

The whole point of listing something on ebay is to try to sell something for the highest market value. If your market consists of one person, then it shouldn't be a shock if that person wants whatever it is for the cheapest possible price.

But don't assume everyone is trying to wait out the seller. There is a downside to taking that approach as a potential buyer, and that is potentially losing the opportunity to get what you want. There is a risk on all sides.

Personally, if I was in your shoes, I would tell the guy that I don't need to sell it at all, and that I find his approach mildly insulting -- and as such, I'm not going to discuss selling it to him at anything less than the ebay listed price, and to contact me when he's seriously interested.

[One Drop]

The reason the real estate market tanked is because light regulation that allowed banks to offer ridiculous loans created a boom and a culture of wealth creation by speculation and buy to let practices that was unsustainable. The problem is not human nature or capitalism, but a system that encourages this behavior and makes a cult of driving growth with consumption.

Not every country was implicit in this but almost all have suffered the results.

America is losing to the East in some ways due to poor education, and short sighted corporate governance, and laws and a culture that defend such practices. If you completely abandon manufacturing, for example, there will be a price to pay, as will there be for allowing the gap between rich and poor to widen while reducing social mobility.

Human beings will always behave similarly given the same incentives, penalties, and situations, albeit with some cultural variation. Moral imperatives are next to useless when trying to affect a market, as mentioned; structural changes have a far greater effect.

[lowphatbass]

How often do you see an Alembic on stage...anywhere!? It's not a huge market, even reaching-out worldwide with Ebay it's probably going to take longer to sell. If you want/need to sell it fast chances are somebody is going to get a great deal.

[LoveThatBass]

The guy may be looking to find them very cheap so he can turn a profit on them. I ran into this with a guy about buying my telecaster. I had it set up and hooked to an amp so he could play it. He said, No I know it will sound good. He did pay what I asked what I paid for it though. I contacted him later to tell him I forgot to give him the pick guard that came stock so I could get it to him. I asked "Hows it doing for you" and that is when he said he doesn't actually play but that he buys guitars, fixes them up and sells them. He said mine was very nice already and he may use it to take lessons.

[Tony Flow MMMM]

Your logic is far to flawed. Imagine the days before internet and eBay. Your market would be zero.

Take Craigslist for example. If I listed a high end bass for 1/4 of the average going price nobody would bite.. Why? Because i live around a bunch of hill billies and if it ain't a stratocaster guitar it isn't anything. I still laugh when I see things like people trying to Sell used shoes in classifieds in newspapers. I can't imagine what time zone there stuck in and how slow it moves.

If you HAVE A BASS worth 2k and only one person wants it, you have to compete for THEIR money. If two people want it the sky is the limit, or Untill they can get another cheaper.


Seriously... 😒

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by lowphatbass

How often do you see an Alembic on stage...anywhere!? It's not a huge market, even reaching-out worldwide with Ebay it's probably going to take longer to sell. If you want/need to sell it fast chances are somebody is going to get a great deal.

The day an Alembic walks out of the shop, it's value drops by about 50%, by my estimation. They have a very small market.

[guy n. cognito]

Originally Posted by One Drop

The reason the real estate market tanked is because light regulation that allowed banks to offer ridiculous loans created a boom and a culture of wealth creation by speculation and buy to let practices that was unsustainable. The problem is not human nature or capitalism, but a system that encourages this behavior and makes a cult of driving growth with consumption.

.

Personal accountability is grossly overrated.

[pedroims]

After losing a lot of money by buying / selling bass gear, I have learned the following:

a) Control your gas.

b) Buy used.

c) Always make an offer, not lowballs, but I will always negotiate the price, unless it is a great deal.

d) If I buy new , I need to sell it as used. Even if the bass has only 5 minutes of playing. Expect to lose at least 30% of the paid value.

e) Wait for a deal...man, a stingray was selling for $650 a couple of weeks ago

f) Expensive gear is hard to sell, no many people will spend $3,000 in a used bass so avoid these type of basses.

g) Understand that buyers do not care for how much you paid/love/upgraded your bass.

h) Understand that for many TB's members , playing bass is a HOBBY so spending money on gear it is not in their priority list. In many cases they will only get gear if they can prove to their significant other that was a great deal they cant let passed by ...

I 'm still losing money on some transactions but I know it is the risk that I take everytime I cant control my gas.

[fatbottom8169]

While I agree with many of your points, this is not something new it has been and always will be this way. Not just simply Supply and Demand but basically just that as progress always leads to the fading out and restructuring of how we do things and that in turn leads to a change in the types of "jobs there are". When farmers started to maintain the fields with motorized equipment changed the need for manual labor. I think you get the point.

I do agree with you on the attitude of buyers (and sellers) on internet purchases. But honestly if I was selling a sweet bass for 200 bucks and you knew it was worth a grand would you offer me 800 bucks more?

I wouldn't, unless you were a kid or something and I figured you just did not know better.

[interp]

It's very simple: value and price are separate, subjective things. Buyer places a certain value on an item, which in turn determines the price he/she is willing to pay. Seller places a certain value on an item, which in turn determines the price he/she is willing to accept. There is a never a guarantee of a meeting of the minds. As noted by other posters, there is no such thing as "true value."

[pickles]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

@pickles

List-$5500
My eBay price-$2200 free shipping
My Alembic forum price-$2000 shipped
His price-$800 plus shipping

And mine really is NOS.

Most Alembic Epics sell for around $1600 so I have no idea where he got his idea. And mine is an Excel. Ibthink mine is the only one for sale on the web in the world.

I am just amazed at the way his head works and even more how this is becoming prevelent.

What was new street, I think there's a big list/sale gap on those right? Like 3500 I'm guessing?

Yeah, he's out of line, but I think 1600 is quite high for an epic. I would not pay that. Your excel probably sells fast at 1700-1800. They are a bit out of fashion, so it's a niche sale. As opposed to a very fashionable sadowsky NYC that sells direct for 4500 ("list" would be what, 6000?) and you can often sell in a day or two for 3500. Or an impossibly fashionable alleva Coppolo that you can flip for new price because there is a long waiting list for new.

Surprise surprise, the right answer is somewhere in he middle

[pickles]

Originally Posted by Tony Flow MMMM

Your logic is far to flawed. Imagine the days before internet and eBay. Your market would be zero.

Exactly. I tried to trade that old ET6 for a hamer cruise in a shop. Thy said "no, I'll never be able to sell that".

[Engine207]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

When I go shopping for something I want or need, I generally know what it's worth before I begin. When I find one at a competitive price that I can comfortably afford, that's good enough for me: I buy it, I use it, I enjoy it. End of story.

This. When I was out looking for my SVT classic, I knew the prices ranged around $800-$1000. When I found one (purportedly) in good shape for $800, I went to have a look. The seller was really cool knowledgeable, and honest about its condition. I could have probably waved some Benjamins in his face and scored it for $775, but I'm just not that guy.

On the other hand, when I find something I really want, that's priced higher than what it's worth, I do haggle it a bit to see if I can get it for a more reasonable price. I need to remind myself to be prepared to walk away if the seller is firm.

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

When I'm on the selling end, I expect similar behavior from buyers - but too seldom see it. In particular, I have zero patience with the douchebag who can't recognize a great bargain when it's right in front of his nose - or even if he can, is still determined to squeeze the very last dollar of concession out of me that he possibly can. At some point, it ceases to be about business...and morphs into some kind of twisted personal competition.

I hate that guy. If I so much as smell that in a dude, he couldn't change his mind and give me $100 more than what I was asking. I take that as disrespect, and tell him to get the #%*& outta here.

[BawanaRik]

I gave a buddy ride to pick up a ProReverb. $500 with the cover an it might even have had the foot switch. This is a deal. Just in case I had $500 in my pocket. My buddy, exbuddy, started to beat the guy down on the price.

I left. I should have whipped the $500 and just bought the darn thing.

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

Boy, you just said a mouthful, Tom! I feel entirely the same way...and have felt that way for a good long time now.

When I go shopping for something I want or need, I generally know what it's worth before I begin. When I find one at a competitive price that I can comfortably afford, that's good enough for me: I buy it, I use it, I enjoy it. End of story.

When I'm on the selling end, I expect similar behavior from buyers - but too seldom see it. In particular, I have zero patience with the douchebag who can't recognize a great bargain when it's right in front of his nose - or even if he can, is still determined to squeeze the very last dollar of concession out of me that he possibly can. At some point, it ceases to be about business...and morphs into some kind of twisted personal competition.

By the way, in my experience this entire mindset has deeply penetrated even the labor market: I can't tell you how many dopes here in New York City have tried to play hardball with me in compensation negotiations, trying not just to obtain my services on the cheap, but down-in-the-dirt cheap. It's extremely insulting. More than a few times, I've simply walked away - but what I've really wanted to say is: "This whole 'trying to get something for nothing' thing...Has it ever really worked for you? In any facet of your life"?

MM

[BawanaRik]

Whippet?

Originally Posted by BlueTalon

The whole point of listing something on ebay is to try to sell something for the highest market value. If your market consists of one person, then it shouldn't be a shock if that person wants whatever it is for the cheapest possible price.

But don't assume everyone is trying to wait out the seller. There is a downside to taking that approach as a potential buyer, and that is potentially losing the opportunity to get what you want. There is a risk on all sides.

Personally, if I was in your shoes, I would tell the guy that I don't need to sell it at all, and that I find his approach mildly insulting -- and as such, I'm not going to discuss selling it to him at anything less than the ebay listed price, and to contact me when he's seriously interested.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by interp

It's very simple: value and price are separate, subjective things. Buyer places a certain value on an item, which in turn determines the price he/she is willing to pay. Seller places a certain value on an item, which in turn determines the price he/she is willing to accept. There is a never a guarantee of a meeting of the minds. As noted by other posters, there is no such thing as "true value."

True - but only to an extent...

Bear in mind that an individual transaction almost never occurs in a vacuum: it usually occurs in an economic context of a great many similar transactions, conducted by thousands, hundreds of thousands, or even millions of individual buyers & sellers. Or in other words, a market.

It is the mass aggregation of selling prices for a given product in a given market that ultimately defines & quantifies its demand, and therefore the range of typical selling prices that have become standard for that particular item - and not just the arbitrary whimsy of each individual buyer or seller.

MM