Why the bass community is hurting itself.

[tastybasslines]

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

When I'm on the selling end, I expect similar behavior from buyers - but too seldom see it. In particular, I have zero patience with the douchebag who can't recognize a great bargain when it's right in front of his nose - or even if he can, is still determined to squeeze the very last dollar of concession out of me that he possibly can. At some point, it ceases to be about business...and morphs into some kind of twisted personal competition.

I just had an experience with THAT guy. I had a Yamaha RBX170 I picked up in a strip club parking lot for $40 bucks about a year ago. A few months ago, I put an ad out for $60 dollars, for the bass in pretty good shape, minus a missing knob. I'm getting lots of calls on it, I mean, where can you really buy basses for $60 dollars right? I'm assuming my price was low, since most people told me to not sell it and that I'm coming right away type of thing. I wasn't trying to make a killing on it, just a VERY fair price.

This one guy says he is interested, and out of the norm, I drove a little extra to meet him where he lives as I had the bass in my trunk, and it was coming home from work, so it was pretty much on the way.

He is an obvious noob, and looks the bass over. Asks me a few beginner questions. He pulls out his cash and then says, "I'll give you $40 for it." I told him no, and that I had a TON of people wanting it and that I came here to meet you at your place (outside) and you %$#@%$ low ball me? I asked him if he has ever seen any other basses advertised at $60?

He turned and walking away, said, "Oh well". I called him an a#@hole for wasting my time, and I would never have come if he was going to low ball me. I was forthright in my dealings. I told him good luck in finding a playable $40 dollar bass.

He changed his mind at the last minute, and handed me $59, yes, $59, not the full $60. I couldn't believe it. I just wanted to be rid of it, and gave it to him. It made me angry enough that I wouldn't do it again.

I sort of agree with the OP about the community part, in as so much that I realize in retrospect that I wanted my bass, however insignificant, to go to someone deserving and appreciative of such a deal.

Now, I say my price is FIRM before meeting with them, and if that's not OK, I don't meet with them.

[deeptubes]

I think the point trying to be made is that far too many people want a Cadillac for the price of a Kia. There's nothing wrong with asking. All someone can do is laugh and tell him he's not even in the ballpark. Almost sounds like he wants to flip it.

I think I understand what Tom is trying to say. It seems like buyers are cutting sellers' nuts off to save a dollar, even if the seller is asking a fair price. Yes, I understand that "fair price" is subjective and that people tend to overvalue what they are selling while undervaluing what they are buying, as if they are looking to compromise. But, if a seller bases his price upon research and not some random number floating through his head, he should stand firm. When I sell stuff, I set a price at something that both parties will be happy with. I'm just trying to move on. Some people are trying to make money, and that's all that matters to them.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

He changed his mind at the last minute, and handed me $59, yes, $59, not the full $60. I couldn't believe it. I just wanted to be rid of it, and gave it to him.

Irritating people are irritating.
I would have shoved it up his ***.
.

[RaginRog]

Originally Posted by pedroims

After losing a lot of money by buying / selling bass gear, I have learned the following:

a) Control your gas.

b) Buy used.

c) Always make an offer, not lowballs, but I will always negotiate the price, unless it is a great deal.

d) If I buy new , I need to sell it as used. Even if the bass has only 5 minutes of playing. Expect to lose at least 30% of the paid value.

e) Wait for a deal...man, a stingray was selling for $650 a couple of weeks ago

f) Expensive gear is hard to sell, no many people will spend $3,000 in a used bass so avoid these type of basses.

g) Understand that buyers do not care for how much you paid/love/upgraded your bass.

h) Understand that for many TB's members , playing bass is a HOBBY so spending money on gear it is not in their priority list. In many cases they will only get gear if they can prove to their significant other that was a great deal they cant let passed by ...

I 'm still losing money on some transactions but I know it is the risk that I take everytime I cant control my gas.

^ this...can't put it any better

[sondich]

Originally Posted by tastybasslines

I just had an experience with THAT guy. I had a Yamaha RBX170 I picked up in a strip club parking lot for $40 bucks about a year ago. A few months ago, I put an ad out for $60 dollars, for the bass in pretty good shape, minus a missing knob. I'm getting lots of calls on it, I mean, where can you really buy basses for $60 dollars right? I'm assuming my price was low, since most people told me to not sell it and that I'm coming right away type of thing. I wasn't trying to make a killing on it, just a VERY fair price.

This one guy says he is interested, and out of the norm, I drove a little extra to meet him where he lives as I had the bass in my trunk, and it was coming home from work, so it was pretty much on the way.

He is an obvious noob, and looks the bass over. Asks me a few beginner questions. He pulls out his cash and then says, "I'll give you $40 for it." I told him no, and that I had a TON of people wanting it and that I came here to meet you at your place (outside) and you %$#@%$ low ball me? I asked him if he has ever seen any other basses advertised at $60?

He turned and walking away, said, "Oh well". I called him an a#@hole for wasting my time, and I would never have come if he was going to low ball me. I was forthright in my dealings. I told him good luck in finding a playable $40 dollar bass.

He changed his mind at the last minute, and handed me $59, yes, $59, not the full $60. I couldn't believe it. I just wanted to be rid of it, and gave it to him. It made me angry enough that I wouldn't do it again.

I sort of agree with the OP about the community part, in as so much that I realize in retrospect that I wanted my bass, however insignificant, to go to someone deserving and appreciative of such a deal.

Now, I say my price is FIRM before meeting with them, and if that's not OK, I don't meet with them.

Most of the people buying used gear from private parties feel like they must haggle or they're leaving $ on the table. If you listed the bass for $20, I'm sure he would have offered you $13.

[oniman7]

I don't think it's hurting us one bit. I think it's wonderful that I could get my first bass for $175, my Ibanez BTB for $200, and my Ernie Ball Stingray 5 for $800. If I needed to, I could find a Squier that would last me years of gigs for $90. How can that do anything but good for the bass community? Guitar Center has the wide range of guitars so you can compare 50 in a day and walk out with one that day. Musician's Friend gets you great deals new. For used deals, there's always something on Craigslist. Buyers can enter at a lower barrier, and it almost feels right that someone else gets in at a lower barrier as well.

As far as custom and boutique basses, that's a field I have absolutely no experience in.

[zachoff]

Used stuff is used.

I'll pay maybe a little over half of what it sells for, new... Depeding on the condition. I also sell for a little over half of the new price and usually don't have a problem selling stuff. If it's old, I might pay more.

[TRichardsbass]

As you can see my price is fair and I have a little room.

But its not about a sale or not. Its about attitude. Just like using a foreclosure price to value your home, there is this race to zero.

Personally I love the Alembic but I don't play it. And since its mint I won't play it much if at all. Want someone who would enjoy it get it. Hence the price.

Good discussion though. Interesting to see where peoples hesds are at.

Oh, and my Alembic will always smoke your SX, Douglas or Brice...

[stephenleejp]

"true" value is market value

[GregC]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

After looking at that, it became clear to me. The internet economy has destroyed the price of everything, including bass guitars. And we are doing it to ourselves.

I disagree.The internet economy started ramping up in earnest in the late 1990s, but no reasonable person would claim that prices have gone steadily down since then. In fact, they went steadily up until 2008 along with the global economy, then started dropping--along with the economy.

Making things worse, the market has been flooded since then not only because people are short on cash, but because the people who flipped gear like crazy when prices went up never broke the habit.

[Unprofessional]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

... Just like using a foreclosure price to value your home, there is this race to zero. ...

It is not a race to zero. It is the market correcting itself from distortion. The market was distorted by government meddling because the government decided that the home ownership rate in this country was too low. IMO, the traditional home ownership rate had always been rationally set by the percentage of people who were disciplined enough to service a mortgage that was within their means. In 2005, 2006 and 2007, the qualifications required for a mortgage had been reduced to a pulse and the ability to sign your name 35 times. People behaved in line with their incentives as they always do. They bought houses they really couldn't afford. Existing homeowners sold their houses that they could afford and bought larger houses that they couldn't afford. Any lender who questioned the practice was pressured by the government and re-assured that government would back the mortgage anyway. Guess who ultimately financially backstops the government?
Artificial demand forced prices higher and higher when builders couldn't throw together houses fast enough. Those prices were distorted and not real market-set prices. Things that can't go on forever, don't. When everything came apart in 2007-2008, those people who had little more invested in their mortgages than some ink and a few payments walked away. If you're angry at those people, you're angry at the wrong people. They behaved in a perfectly rational manner.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

As you can see my price is fair and I have a little room.

But its not about a sale or not. Its about attitude. Just like using a foreclosure price to value your home, there is this race to zero.

Personally I love the Alembic but I don't play it. And since its mint I won't play it much if at all. Want someone who would enjoy it get it. Hence the price.

Good discussion though. Interesting to see where peoples hesds are at.

Oh, and my Alembic will always smoke your SX, Douglas or Brice...

Pro:

The expanded market of internet sales has done so by reducing the barriers to entry. Anyone with a computer can now be a potential customer.

Con:

The expanded market of internet sales has done so by reducing the barriers to entry. Anyone with a computer can now be a potential customer.

[Engine207]

Originally Posted by Unprofessional

It is not a race to zero. It is the market correcting itself from distortion. The market was distorted by government meddling because the government decided that the home ownership rate in this country was too low. IMO, the traditional home ownership rate had always been rationally set by the percentage of people who were disciplined enough to service a mortgage that was within their means. In 2005, 2006 and 2007, the qualifications required for a mortgage had been reduced to a pulse and the ability to sign your name 35 times. People behaved in line with their incentives as they always do. They bought houses they really couldn't afford. Existing homeowners sold their houses that they could afford and bought larger houses that they couldn't afford. Any lender who questioned the practice was pressured by the government and re-assured that government would back the mortgage anyway. Guess who ultimately financially backstops the government?
Artificial demand forced prices higher and higher when builders couldn't throw together houses fast enough. Those prices were distorted and not real market-set prices. Things that can't go on forever, don't. When everything came apart in 2007-2008, those people who had little more invested in their mortgages than some ink and a few payments walked away. If you're angry at those people, you're angry at the wrong people. They behaved in a perfectly rational manner.

The best and most concise description of the mortgage meltdown that destroyed our economy. This began way back during the Clinton administration.

[One Drop]

The last two posts are excellent, well put.

[Edward G.]

Originally Posted by Will Kelly

The crappy economy is making everything used cheaper, and people are still not able to buy because of lack of funds. There are plenty of killer deals I see in the classified section here that do not sell or take a looonnngg time to do so.

It is what is commonly called a "market adjustment" or "market correction". Things have to cost less because there is less money available, which prompts sellers to lower prices to avoid getting stuck with unsold inventory. The value, however, is unchanged because the object's utility hasn't changed a lick. It's the value of the money that is changing because of its increasing scarcity. It's a relative thing. A REAL problem would be some new technology that renders the traditional electric bass useless. THEN'S when you're gonna see low prices.

Price deflation is a sho-nuff beeyotch.

[GregC]

Originally Posted by Unprofessional

It is not a race to zero. It is the market correcting itself from distortion. The market was distorted by government meddling because the government decided that the home ownership rate in this country was too low. IMO, the traditional home ownership rate had always been rationally set by the percentage of people who were disciplined enough to service a mortgage that was within their means. In 2005, 2006 and 2007, the qualifications required for a mortgage had been reduced to a pulse and the ability to sign your name 35 times. People behaved in line with their incentives as they always do. They bought houses they really couldn't afford. Existing homeowners sold their houses that they could afford and bought larger houses that they couldn't afford. Any lender who questioned the practice was pressured by the government and re-assured that government would back the mortgage anyway. Guess who ultimately financially backstops the government?
Artificial demand forced prices higher and higher when builders couldn't throw together houses fast enough. Those prices were distorted and not real market-set prices. Things that can't go on forever, don't. When everything came apart in 2007-2008, those people who had little more invested in their mortgages than some ink and a few payments walked away. If you're angry at those people, you're angry at the wrong people. They behaved in a perfectly rational manner.

Originally Posted by Engine207

The best and most concise description of the mortgage meltdown that destroyed our economy. This began way back during the Clinton administration.

There is *some* truth to this, yes. But there were many, many bad mortgages written not because of government pressure, but to juice short-term profits so executives could cash in their stock options at ever-higher prices.
Furthermore, the biggest reason we went down the financial wormhole in '08 was the widespread, incredibly sloppy securitization of mortgages and the remarkable amount of leverage applied to them (in some cases more than 50X!)--the latter enabled by credit default swaps, which were put beyond the reach of the SEC by the deregulation crowd earlier in the decade.
The proof is in the pudding--some of the biggest, most notorious failures and near-failures were by companies that wrote few or no mortgages such as AIG, Lehman Brothers and Merrill Lynch.
Ultimately, many parties are to blame for that mess.

Having said all that, the point that levered-up consumers contributed to a rise in used instrument prices is a good one.

[Edward G.]

Actually, a good hedge against market fluctuations is barter, provided you don't need the cash more than the trade.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by GregC

There is *some* truth to this, yes. But there were many, many bad mortgages written not because of government pressure, but to juice short-term profits so executives could cash in their stock options at ever-higher prices.
Furthermore, the biggest reason we went down the financial wormhole in '08 was the widespread, incredibly sloppy securitization of mortgages and the remarkable amount of leverage applied to them (in some cases more than 50X!)--the latter enabled by credit default swaps, which were put beyond the reach of the SEC by the deregulation crowd earlier in the decade.
The proof is in the pudding--some of the biggest, most notorious failures and near-failures were by companies that wrote few or no mortgages such as AIG, Lehman Brothers and Merrill Lynch.
Ultimately, many parties are to blame for that mess.

Thank you!

MM

[Nev375]

It costs the guy nothing to ask if you are a sucker and/or desperate by giving you a lowball offer.

You wanna know whats in his head, that's it. Sure 99 out of 100 sellers are going to say no. Its a recession, the market is down, people are out of work, disasters are happening. Dig hard enough and you can find a situation that provides for a "steal" price.

The market weather is what it is. The bass community is doing nothing different to hurt itself.

It's hard for me to imagine a simple lowball offer caused such flabbergastization and analysis.

[Edward G.]

^^
flabbergastization

I love it.