Why the bass community is hurting itself.

[mizzou541]

I'm sorry but when I'm buying something I want it as cheap as I can get it. Why would I buy something for $500 if I knew I could wait around and eventually catch it for $350?

When I'm selling something I pretty much know that if I want to move it fairly quickly, it better be priced at least slightly below its value. If I do some research and see that used guitars like mine are going for $500, I know that if I simply list at $500 I'm going to have a ****load of competition. What sets my listing apart from all the others? If I'm in no hurry and don't need the money, then I'll price it there and leave it. If nobody buys it then I guess it isn't worth as much as I thought it was.

[inthevelvet]

The exception to your rule, and you kind of alluded to it, is "vintage" fender stuff. I kinda have GAS for a bass from my birth year, 1969. Even a beat up fender mustang is $1200 plus...a decent jazz is 4-5k.

[low2groove]

I look at it as simple add this.
If a bass list for $800.
And sells for $600 retail.
I expect to pay no more than $350-400 max and that's if it's in excellent condition.

1/2 price is about where most used equipment sells for or at least it should.

It's used even if you've only had it for a week.

Most used pedals are over priced. Hell all boutique pedals are over priced from the get go.

[TRichardsbass]

Mizzou you explained the race to zero perfectly. You will price it under value to eliminate your competition. Then the next guy does it, and the next...

Of course we all want things for the lowest we can. But sometimes that is self defeating. I can buy a rebuilt chainsaw from my neighbor for 1/4 it will cost me for a new one. However it will have less life and mat have some obsolescense issues quicker. Same function, cheapest price. But it may only cut one tree and die.

The fallacy of the economy argument is cell phones. People will kill for iPhones and pay 2x what a Samsung Galaxy costs eventhough they are equivalent functionally. And both built onChina for less then $50 bucks. People have the same money they had before, they just have less credit.

The race to zero is a phrase coined by a well known economist. Because society sees everything as disposable it will continue. It will also kill the overall economy. Cheaper good less overall cash and smaller profit. Must pay workers less, who have less to spend so they need a cheaper product. Killer cycle.

China manipulates its currency because currently they are the beneficiary of this consumer race to zero. When they finally have to adjust everyone is in for a world of hurt.

You cant find a US based customer service in most industries because it is way cheaper to outsourse it. So less here have jobs and less money. Race to zero.

It is actually starting to effect the luxury goods markets directly.

As for the hone mortgage crisis I blame it solely on the buyers. You know what you can actually afford but yu ignored it anyway. I bought a much smaller house then my songwriting partner because I knew exactly what my income supported. He bought a Mcmansion because he banked on value going up and a refi within 2 years like all mortgage guys would sell you.

He is struggling now because the market dropped and he cant get a refi. I am comfortable because I didnt let myself be deluded.

I know people who can afford the monthly payments but are walking away because their homes are worth less. That is also the buyers problem because they are looking at their primary residence as an investment and not a roof over there head.

As sleazy as the mortgage industry got they didnt do anything deceptive. I know guys here who did more research buying a used SX bass then they did researching and reading their mortgage contract or managing their paycheck.

[bassdude51]

Originally Posted by Will Kelly

The crappy economy is making everything used cheaper, and people are still not able to buy because of lack of funds. There are plenty of killer deals I see in the classified section here that do not sell or take a looonnngg time to do so.

It's not the internet that's killing prices of basses and everthing else. It's the economy! Duh! Right?

Have we seen how the bottom has fallen out on vintage gear?

Just on Sunday, 1-12 at the Central Ohio Guitar Covention, I saw a 1962 sunburst, tort guard P Bass in VG condition, 9 grand (keeping in mind a buyer could get it for less). About 5 years ago, that same bass was going for around $12,000.

Elderly has a '62 P for $7,500 in the latest issue of Vintage Guitar Magazine. UNREAL!

Times are tuff!

A great time to buy...................a terrible time to sell.

Imports are dropping prices on used gear too. I fall over when I see a new and gorgeous Sterling by Musicman for $600! Why would I wanna pay $850 for your used USA 'Ray?

These are tuff and "crazy" economic times. One of most secure commodities has always been houses and property. NOT ANY MORE! Look at how the prices have dropped!

A great time to buy...............a terrible time to sell.

[GregC]

Originally Posted by TRichardsbass

The fallacy of the economy argument is cell phones. People will kill for iPhones and pay 2x what a Samsung Galaxy costs eventhough they are equivalent functionally. And both built onChina for less then $50 bucks. People have the same money they had before, they just have less credit.

I don't know where you got that from, but I just checked Verizon. iPhone 5 with a 2-year contract: $200. Samsung Galaxy s III: exact same price.

[TRichardsbass]

I was basing it on the unlocked phone only price. Using plan pricing is skewed. And I cant use the iPhone 5 on Virgin Mobile where I can get a pay as you go for $45 a month unlimited data. The AT&T and Verizon plans are much more.

Either way its not as much about the economy as it is about a mindset.

My step daughter just bought herself a new smart phone because "4G is faster." Which is not neccessarily the case. She paid double what my new Motorola Triumph cost and they both play Youtube videos the same. She had the money to buy either.

Markets correct themselves. However it is an insane market that makes a mint Peavey T-40 worth less then a Squier Jaguar. If quality US made products carry more value, as many say, then it cannot be the case. However with the race to zero it makes perfect sense. Old goes to zero firstcas only new has value. And that value is much less so old is more much less.

I guess to me if you want to always have the options we have then actually placing value where it belongs helps preserve the market.

There used to he a time when we would help out the guy who cuts your lawn himself but now we just say we do but go with the guy with the illegals because its cheaper. And then we are angry when we need his level of service but he is no longer in business.

[hrodbert696]

I have serious problems with a lot of the logic going around here. Used gear is used gear - which doesn't say anything about the quality, but does have implications for who stands behind what I just bought. If I buy a new bass from a store or website and it turns out to have problems, I can return it. If I buy a used bass over TB or CL or ebay and it has problems, I'm stuck with it (maybe with some arbitration if I can make the case that the seller misrepresented it, but basically I'm stuck with it). So the reason to buy a used bass is that either a) it's out of production and this is the only way to get one, or b) I'm looking to save money - in which case I'm going to see how much money I can save on the deal and haggle the guy as low as I can.

But if we really buy the logic that buyers have a moral obligation to pay a higher price for used gear because getting the best deal you can undermines the market, doesn't the same logic apply to choosing to buy used gear vs. new gear? After all, if we all take the advice, very common around here, to buy used, then we're not putting money into the companies that make the basses. If they're not making money, they may go out of business, which will mean no new basses being made for us to buy used down the line.

At the end of the day, I think the basic issue is that the market is oversaturated and the economy is bad in general. It's no longer the day when you went into your local store and picked the Fender or the Gibson or the Silvertone. There are hundreds of makers with thousands of models all competing for buyers, and people selling their used gear to boot. No amount of urging people to overpay out of some vague duty to bail out the bass community is going to have much impact on that basic equation.

[Lonesomedave]

i think the whole argument is just silly...it fails to take into account a very basic fact of human nature...

Buyers want to buy for as little as possible & sellers want to sell for as much as possible....simple as that

in a particular case, if they reach an accord, a transaction will take place...if they don't, well....there are always other sellers and other buyers.

to put this on moral terms, or even far-sighted "what's best for the community" terms is simply to fail to understand basic economics.

here, the OP has said, in effect "pay what the guy is asking, because it's a fair price and you'll hurt the community if you don't"....we just had a thread where the OP laments that people of TB should sell their gear for as little as possible, because we are all brothers & sisters here.

In effect, these points of view are polar opposites.

Both are naive...economics does not work that way...seller wants the most, buyer wants a good deal. neither is right or wrong, that's just the way things are.

in short, keep doing what you are doing, because that way, the true value of gear, instruments etc is established

[Tony Flow MMMM]

Dumbest thread ever

[Edward G.]

I disagree.

It's positively Socratic compared to the 'What color sounds better?' thread.

[CraigTB]

Yep. Like Dave says, nothing weird here. Just a market at work and buyers and sellers all operating out of self-interest.

Sometimes the whole world goes crazy and agrees for example that tulip bulbs are worth more than gold. It's obviously silly and it's obviously a bubble, but as long as that bubble doesn't pop, tulip bulbs ARE worth more than gold.

[beardedclam]

Sustainable pricing is determined by supply and demand. The internet has opened up the market ten fold. It is what it is.

[Nev375]

Originally Posted by beardedclam

Sustainable pricing is determined by supply and demand. The internet has opened up the market ten fold. It is what it is.

You make it sound like the internet only works one way. The market has opened up, yes, but for buyers and sellers both.

If what you are offering is just a bass, then yes, you are going to have trouble with pricing because you have to compete with every other bass on the market.

The trick now is to have a special niche market that separates you from everyone else. Like, 12 string basses, or carbon fiber or aluminum basses. Because now, its easy to connect with those eccentric individuals who are looking for something more or different than "just a bass"


It's kinda like the music industry itself. Those companies who are stuck to the old ways of selling records are going to cry and whine loudly as they sink to their death.
Meanwhile other people are thinking outside the box and learning to evolve to the new environment are going to thrive and establish the next generation business model.

[guitardefector]

I love it when I go into Guitar Center and see dozens of high schoolers slapping expensive, high quality basses silly, and their parents by their side ready to pull out the Mastercard. That means more great "cheap" bass purchases on Craigslist for me in the coming years.

[LiquidMidnight]

Interesting enough...if I were to sell a piece of gear, I'd probably get more out of it in the TB classifieds or on Ebay than I would selling it locally, even though I'm dealing with greater supply online. The problem is that people don't really have a lot of money in my local economy, so price elasticity on used gear kills what I can ask for it and end up with a successful sale. On top of that, most people are pretty basic with their gear needs here. I've had a few opportunities to pick up used Divided by 13 TBL200s; but I knew if I wanted to flip one, there would be no way in hell I'd ever be able to sell something like that locally.

Of course, the local market has very much benefitted me as a buyer, as I picked up my 400+ for $500.

[Pilgrim]

Nothing in this thread has changed the fact that any item is worth what someone else is willing to pay for it. Period.

The Internet makes it possible to search more options faster, but that doesn't change the truth of the statement.

The good news is that venues like Ebay INCREASE the value of many things which are unusual or hard to find, because it allows more people to find them - meaning there's more competition for them.

It works both ways.

[LiquidMidnight]

Also, I always chuckle when I see someone put something up for sell on TB and they get a string of people posting "PM Sent," yet the item remains up for sale. Either that person is getting spammed by a bunch of tire kickers or people trying to low-ball (or trying to offer trades when no trades were asked for).

Unless a seller has "OBO" posted next to the price, I don't PM that person and try to get them to come down. I assume that is the price they're hoping to get for it. Yeah, I've seen people post stuff over market value. I just assume that market forces will take effect and they'll eventually come down on the price if they really want to sell the item.

Personally, I hate it when people waste my time, so I try not to waste seller's time either. I only PM someone about a piece of gear if I'm seriously interested in it and find the posted price to be fair.

[cloverkeys]

In the end, its hurting you more then the guy selling it.

I couldn't possibly agree less.


I doubt the man interested in your bass has made a ranting post on his respective forum.

[nukes_da_bass]

The OP has scarcity on his side. The carpetbagger who assumed everything is a fire sale was mistaken.
If the Carpetbagger "must" have an Alembic of that model, chances are he will have to come up to the OPs price.