Why are certain instruments "in a key"

[jamisonsalamand]

I can't think of a specific example, because I've never played much of anything aside from bass drums and some guitar, but why are certain instruments like trumpet "in a key?"

This confuses the living **** out of me. My brother had to find a song for trumpet, and he couldn't use the sheet music his teacher had because it had to be in a certain key for trumpet.

Why in god's name is an instrument in a certain key? Isn't a G ALWAYS going to sound like a G? And if certain pitches are something like a halfstep down, why don't they just change the way certain fingerings on an instrument are called? If that G is made by using say your first and ring finger, why would it ever need to be transposed or anything? G is going to sound like G no matter what, so I'm confused as to why notes can't just be played

[groooooove]

Originally Posted by jamisonsalamand

I can't think of a specific example, because I've never played much of anything aside from bass drums and some guitar, but why are certain instruments like trumpet "in a key?"

This confuses the living **** out of me. My brother had to find a song for trumpet, and he couldn't use the sheet music his teacher had because it had to be in a certain key for trumpet.

Why in god's name is an instrument in a certain key? Isn't a G ALWAYS going to sound like a G? And if certain pitches are something like a halfstep down, why don't they just change the way certain fingerings on an instrument are called? If that G is made by using say your first and ring finger, why would it ever need to be transposed or anything? G is going to sound like G no matter what, so I'm confused as to why notes can't just be played

a concert G is the G you know. the reason a lot of horns transpose is because of fingerings- thats why an alto sax player can still play tenor sax without really studying the instrument, because if he were to learn the concert pitches on both instruments all of the fingerings would be like learning an entirely new instrument.

the bass is a transposing instrument, btw, it just happens to be down an octave. guitar as well.

this was the reason my sax player gave me for why horns transpose, so there could be other reasons as well.

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by jamisonsalamand

I can't think of a specific example, because I've never played much of anything aside from bass drums and some guitar, but why are certain instruments like trumpet "in a key?"

This confuses the living **** out of me. My brother had to find a song for trumpet, and he couldn't use the sheet music his teacher had because it had to be in a certain key for trumpet.

Why in god's name is an instrument in a certain key? Isn't a G ALWAYS going to sound like a G? And if certain pitches are something like a halfstep down, why don't they just change the way certain fingerings on an instrument are called? If that G is made by using say your first and ring finger, why would it ever need to be transposed or anything? G is going to sound like G no matter what, so I'm confused as to why notes can't just be played

Some instruments play transposed charts and call a C an F or whatever because if they didn't, when the players would go to read sheet music most of their notes would be on those little short pieces of line above or below the staff. When a band director says "play a concert C", all the players play the note of the key their instrument is tuned in and it comes out the same (or octave) pitch.

Also, when you go to a larger version of an instrument, say from a tenor to an alto saxophone, the fingerings are the same for relative pitch, but very different for absolute pitch, like maybe down a fourth (I don't know from saxes, so that's a WAG). So, when you finger what was a C on the tenor, now on the alto it's a G. Instead of making you learn what's an absolute C on the alto and basically learn to play all over again, the charts are transposed up a fourth so that when you finger what you think of (and read) as an F, it comes out a C.

Make sense?

[Mayers]

Well ... when I did my college degree in music ( I played classical upright bass ). In the orchestra to tune our instrument we did play a "A" but I know some instrument have to play a Bb.

I never really understood why they transpose but I know that bass is one octave lower than what it is written.

[jamisonsalamand]

Originally Posted by groooooove

the reason a lot of horns transpose is because of fingerings- thats why an alto sax player can still play tenor sax without really studying the instrument, because if he were to learn the concert pitches on both instruments all of the fingerings would be like learning an entirely new instrument.

So(complete random example), the fingering for a B flat on alto sax might be the same as a fingering for a D on the tenor sax, so they tell the tenor sax player to play a D fingering on an alto sax to get the B flat?

Like how if you have two basses, one in standard and one a half step down. The guy is familiar with standard tuning and is playing in half-step down tuning, and you want to hear an A. So you tell him to play an A sharp, so that with the half-step down tuning it ends up sounding like the A?

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by jamisonsalamand

So(complete random example), the fingering for a B flat on alto sax might be the same as a fingering for a D on the tenor sax, so they tell the tenor sax player to play a D fingering on an alto sax to get the B flat?

Like how if you have two basses, one in standard and one a half step down. The guy is familiar with standard tuning and is playing in half-step down tuning, and you want to hear an A. So you tell him to play an A sharp, so that with the half-step down tuning it ends up sounding like the A?

Exactamundo!

[wheelyjoe]

Right, I played trumpet for years, so I might be able to help.


Might.


It's not that the instrument in question CAN'T play the song, but if, you have the same music for piano AND trumpet, as in the same sheet. The piano playing a C, isn't the same as a trumpet C. SO the trumpet part will be in a different key to make the notes match up.

It's like you playing a song in A, and someone else in B, they're the same song and neither of you are playing it WRONG, as such. But together, they don't sound right.

[Jim Campbell]

Originally Posted by jamisonsalamand

I can't think of a specific example, because I've never played much of anything aside from bass drums and some guitar, but why are certain instruments like trumpet "in a key?"

This confuses the living **** out of me. My brother had to find a song for trumpet, and he couldn't use the sheet music his teacher had because it had to be in a certain key for trumpet.

Why in god's name is an instrument in a certain key? Isn't a G ALWAYS going to sound like a G? And if certain pitches are something like a halfstep down, why don't they just change the way certain fingerings on an instrument are called? If that G is made by using say your first and ring finger, why would it ever need to be transposed or anything? G is going to sound like G no matter what, so I'm confused as to why notes can't just be played

i believe the reason that some music is written differently than the instrument pitch is so that the majority of the notes will be on the staff and not ledger lines....bass would be almost all below the bass clef staff if not written an octave higher,or a new staff would need to be used

harmonicas on the other hand....a D harp would contain the notes of the D scale and any incidentals would have to be "bent" by the player....that's why you see those guys with ammo belts full of harps

[jamisonsalamand]

So if people who play instruments transposed a fourth down or something wanted to play a concert C when they're tuning, they'd have to remember that they need to play the fingering they know as F instead? So after a while it seems they would think "this is F but it's concert C" and end up knowing everything as two different notes. More experienced players kind of don't need transposed sheet music then, because they'd have gotten used to knowing the concert notes they're actually playing instead of the notes on sheets that are a fourth down?

[hrodbert696]

I played tenor sax about grades 5-10 and I knew that this was the case but also could never really understand why. The tenor was a Bb instrument so when the band tuned (to a concert Bb) we played C. At least that's what I think we were doing. Clarinets were doing the same (but theirs sounded an octave higher) while the alto saxes and trumpets were Eb instruments so I guess they played an F to tune to -- I don't remember and this all still gets me confused. Did they really start to do this so that our music wouldn't be written way up high (or down low) off the staff? Wouldn't it be simpler for each instrument to have its own staff, the same way that there are different treble and bass clef staves? Or is there some deeper magic to it?

[ggunn]

Originally Posted by jamisonsalamand

So if people who play instruments transposed a fourth down or something wanted to play a concert C when they're tuning, they'd have to remember that they need to play the fingering they know as F instead?

Yep. that's how it works.

So after a while it seems they would think "this is F but it's concert C" and end up knowing everything as two different notes. More experienced players kind of don't need transposed sheet music then, because they'd have gotten used to knowing the concert notes they're actually playing instead of the notes on sheets that are a fourth down?

Not really; usually the only time they have to think in concert pitches is when the orchestra is tuning. When they are playing it seems to them like the orchestra is transposing to them instead of the other way round.

That's not to say that some folks don't get so good that they can transpose on the fly, but it's really hard to do; it's not just the notes on the staff that are moved, it's also which are sharp or flat.

[mulchor]

The other aspect of it is that with some instruments it really is a lot easier to play a particular key.

Fretted instruments and keyboards if you want to transpose to a higher key, you just slide up the neck, or move your hands to the right. There's no natural key to the instrument, unless you only play open chords, say, on a guitar.

With horns, there are some keys that sound better and are easier to play. The trombone, for example, is a C instrument (what you play is what you get). But if you're writing for a trombone, it'll sound best and be easiest to play if you use F Bb Eb Ab and the like. If you're playing with horns and you want them to be in tune, you'd best be in a key that matches.

[Munjibunga]

We always tuned to concert B^b so the trumpet and clarinet players were playing C.

[bassybill]

Long post here, but hopefully a very clear answer. I've tried, anyway!

One of the advantages to having so-called transposing instruments is that it keeps instruments in "families", where a musician who has learned one can relatively easily switch to another. Look at the playing range (as written) for a baritone sax here on the right of the page under the photo:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baritone_saxophone

Now look at tenor, alto and soprano sax *written* ranges:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenor_saxophone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alto_saxophone
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soprano_saxophone

Same for all of them, right? As it is for all the sax family (I think). Once you've learned the sax, you've learned the fingering and the range of notes as written on the stave for the whole family. Other aspects of playing technique will obviously vary because of the differences in physical size of the instruments (which is, of course, also what makes them sound different notes from the top to the bottom of their ranges, even though they're all written the same). But at least the player doesn't have to learn a new stave or fingerings to make the switch.

To illustrate further - say you have a guy in your band who's playing a C melody sax. This is actually one of the much less common saxes, but it helps to make this next point easily. If you're writing a chart and you want this guy to play a C, write a C and that's what you'll hear (it actually comes out an octave lower than written, like a bass does).

Now suppose you add another sax player on a tenor sax. This is a slightly larger instrument and has a range of notes that sound exactly a whole tone lower than the C melody sax, even though they're written the same for the reasons above. We call the tenor sax a Bb instrument because if you ask this guy to play a C, it will come out as a Bb. So if you want to hear a C in tune with your first guy, you have to ask your tenor player to play a D. And if want him to play an Eb a minor third above the other guy, write him an F. And so on...

The advantage is that instrument builders can offer a whole family of saxes with different audible ranges for orchestrators and musicians to create sounds with, but all with the same written range and fingering pattern. I guess similar considerations apply to some other transposing instruments like, for example, Bb trumpets (the most common) and F, C, D, Eb, E, G and A trumpets.

I hope that answers your question.

[tycobb73]

Its where the notes fall on the staff. Remember how everyone says "we play in standard 440 tuning" meaning your open A is at 440. Well it actually isn't. Its at 220. If you were to read the notes as written in standard they would all be below the staff. So while you're talking as if the guitar is reading music as if tuned to middle C it is not. It is an octave below and tunes to A 220.

Because bass uses bass clef its notes are as written.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by tycobb73

Because bass uses bass clef its notes are as written.

No - on double bass and on bass guitar, when you play from notation the notes sound an octave lower than they are written.