Why English is terrible for music

[ffutterman]

Has anyone else noticed that the English language is really inept at describing anything that has to do with sound (goes for taste, too, but that's another topic entirely)?

When you're not borrowing words with other meanings (warm, bright, full, etc.), you end up using onomatopoetic things like wah or "the thump" or you use things that really aren't that descriptive, like growl or being muddy.

Think about it: If I gave you a Stephen King-esque description of an image, you could probably draw a picture of it and do a pretty good job of it. If I described a song with words alone, you wouldn't be able to pick up a bass and play it.

[Actium]

Originally Posted by ffutterman

Think about it: If I gave you a Stephen King-esque description

I would stop after reading one sentence and seeing 5 more pages of the description...

[Corey Y]

I think what you're describing is a limitation of language in general, not English specifically. Beyond verbal description and onomatopoeia you really only have direct experience and/or objective measurement. Words have to relate to something real that people can experience or at least conceptualize to form a shared definition. So you can make up 50 new definitions for specific measurable sound qualities, but if everyone can't understand exactly what they relate to and easily identify them, it doesn't make communication any more efficient.

[ThudThudThud]

Forgive me if I'm missing the point of your post, but we really don't need onomatopoeic definitions, nor do we need English, when standard notation works just fine for music.
I know for tone one would need to be a little more descriptive, but for music itself we already have all the tools.

Tone could only be based on known sounds, so there is where a good command of English (or any other language) would come into play. Sound/tone is not the same as music. We do our best. If I say, "Jaco tone" 90% of the bass players on TB would know exactly what I meant. Same for "Jamerson tone," "Stanley tone" etc. Comparison is all we can use.

@ Actium: I completely agree. Stephen King tells nice stories, but he can't write.

[foq1978]

Originally Posted by Corey Y

I think what you're describing is a limitation of language in general, not English specifically.

+1, as someone who speaks English as a second language.

[ffutterman]

I sort of assumed it goes for all or most languages, but I singled out English since it's the only language I speak (my limited knowledge of Swedish weather-related chit-chat doesn't count).

It just strikes me as odd that, when it comes to describing sound or taste, there's an astonishing lack of words or terms. If I said there was a brown tree on a green field against a blue sky, you get an immediately clear mental picture of it. You can't really do that with sound or taste with the same degree of clarity unless you say it's loud/quiet or salty/sour/sweet.

To be honest, most of this stems from my hate of the term "mouth feel" from wine/coffee descriptions. Is there really no better term for that, even if it's stolen from another language?

[knumbskull]

this reminds me of a good friend of mine, a very good lead guitarist who absolutely cannot vocalise what he wants ... i've played with him for a number of years and always end up translating to the drummer:

him: 'so i want it to be all tasty and tight and and on it, and then when the power moment hits, we all climb the mountain and break into a heavy chunky groove with total feeling, and then bring it back down to ground level and feel it a bit less.'

me, to drummer: 'so it's verse, chorus, verse.'

[Luckie]

Espanol es la idioma mejor.

[bass12]

Originally Posted by ThudThudThud

Forgive me if I'm missing the point of your post, but we really don't need onomatopoeic definitions, nor do we need English, when standard notation works just fine for music.
I know for tone one would need to be a little more descriptive, but for music itself we already have all the tools.

Actually, music notation has considerable limitations in terms of what it is able to communicate. Think about it.

[jgroh]

Him bass play good

[D.A.R.K.]

In popular culture, it's interesting how so many choose to sing in english as opposed to their native languages. Wonder why that is?

[knumbskull]

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

In popular culture, it's interesting how so many choose to sing in english as opposed to their native languages. Wonder why that is?

it's the biggest music market? i'm not sure...

[Bloodhammer]

Grutle Kjellson says it's easier for him to sing in english.

But, yeah, it's become the "international" language thanks to the late British Empire.

[knumbskull]

Originally Posted by Bloodhammer

Grutle Kjellson says it's easier for him to sing in english.

But, yeah, it's become the "international" language thanks to the late British Empire.

true. though Spanish (or related language) music seems to be pretty big too. and i love the fact that some languages work really well with certain genres. French rap is the most unlikely combination, IMO! but it works...

[251]

Originally Posted by ffutterman

I sort of assumed it goes for all or most languages, but I singled out English since it's the only language I speak (my limited knowledge of Swedish weather-related chit-chat doesn't count).

It just strikes me as odd that, when it comes to describing sound or taste, there's an astonishing lack of words or terms.

<snip>

To be honest, most of this stems from my hate of the term "mouth feel" from wine/coffee descriptions. Is there really no better term for that, even if it's stolen from another language?

If you can't see you're blind, can't hear, you're deaf, can't feel you're numb, if you can't smell ??? can't taste ??? How should I describe this espresso I am drinking? Compare this, with lemon peel, to the cup con leche, this morning. I have tried to describe the aroma of Freesia in bloom or the taste of crushed mint leaves. It's a good exercise in language but, not a thing for which my vocabulary is equipped. Though I can ask where to find the bathroom in several languages, I rarely understand the directions unless they are in English. Whenever I feel really limited, I take a stroll through the Zoo, nearby. It could be worse. A lot worse.

[Jazz Ad]

First, most people don't understand what you say so you don't have to use meaningful lyrics.
Second, English is a language based on tonic accents, which makes it very easy to adapt to the flow of a song. When you deal with a language based on fixed phonemes (French is a typic example), you have to work very hard to apply words to a melody, each word having a fixed length.
Finally, English is considered cool everywhere and is the natural language of rock'n'roll.

Originally Posted by D.A.R.K.

In popular culture, it's interesting how so many choose to sing in english as opposed to their native languages. Wonder why that is?

[Rocker949]

Originally Posted by Luckie

Espanol es la idioma mejor.

It's strange I should come across this. Just moments ago, I chose to take learning Spanish seriously after an almost maniacal deliberation over which foreign language I should learn.

[chuck norriss]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...
They spoke English? That's illogical when English is < 2000 years old & derived from germanic, latin, greek

[mambo4]

Usually people describing music are describing what it sounds like to them
-perceptions and emotions which are inherently subjective and imprecise
One man's "thump" is another man's "punch"...
unfortunately people constantly make the mistake of assuming that
what they mean by "thump" is exactly the sound that everyone else thinks of when hearing the word.

Exactly the reason I wish EQ knobs would just have frequencies instead of english "bass / mid/ high"...

[Jazz Ad]

Originally Posted by chuck norriss

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...
They spoke English? That's illogical when English is < 2000 years old & derived from germanic, latin, greek

Basic's relation to English

In Star Wars media, Basic is, with the exception of a few words and phrases devised by authors, the same as English.
This could mean two things: either Galactic Basic actually is the same as the English language used today on Earth, or it is translated for us into English in the same way, that, for example Westron in J. R. R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings.

Languages of the Star Wars universe like Ewokese in the animated series and the language spoken by the Towanis in Caravan of Courage: An Ewok Adventure and Ewoks: The Battle for Endor have also been translated to English.
In translations into non-English languages, Basic is assumed to be English but translated to the other language.

While the letters are different in Basic than English, there are multiple examples where Latin alphabet letters are mentioned, such as in Obi-Wan-Kenobi's quote "Do you have a plan B?", Mission Vao's habitual reference to Zaalbar as "Big Z", and most droid designations. Greek letters are used at times, examples including Delta Squad.

Dialects in English correspond to different in-universe accents in the movies. Ewan McGregor's and Ian McDiarmid's faint upper-class Scottish accents are, for example, Coruscanti accents in the movies.
As a general rule, Imperial characters have English accents while Rebels usually have Californian accents. However, it would seem that this is perhaps a representation of social class, as stormtroopers and other low-ranking Imperials are heard to speak with American accents, and some Rebels in English accents (Mon Mothma, for instance). Other accents are also heard, such as:
Jamaican (Kit Fisto)
Irish (Emon Azzameen, an unnamed Czerka officer outside Anchorhead in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, Lurmen)
Scottish (Whorm Loathsom, Darth Sion and Shoan Kilian)
Italian (Bannamu and Mee Deechi)
German (Nuvo Vindi)
Japanese (Neimoidian)
New York/Brooklyn (the Chiss bartender Baldarek in Star Wars: Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast)
Australian (Owen and Beru Lars in Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones, the Serrocoans, Fenn Shysa, as well as some Mandalorians in Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords)
New Zealander/Maori (The Fett family and clone troopers)
French (certain Twi'leks, such as Aayla Secura and Orn Free Taa)
Ukrainian (General Grievous and Watto)
Russian (Juhani and Even Piell).
Swedish (Shmi Skywalker Lars)
South African (Pantorans, such as Riyo Chuchi)
Indian (Zabraks, such as Eeth Koth and Sugi), also Queen Talia

Star Wars authors have coined original English-like words derived from real English elements but which don't exist in the English language; they seem useful to a space-driven civilization of the Star Wars characters, but totally useless for our daily language. Such words are 'speciesism' (equivalent to racism, but against sentient beings other than the speakers), 'gentlebeing' (equivalent to gentleman, but applicable to all species, including non-humanoid ones), 'offworlder', 'bird' (slang for spaceship, cf. how US Navy slang calls 'torpedo' as 'fish'), 'hyperspace', 'homeworld', 'spacer', 'sentientologist', 'youngling' (young + suffix -ling meaning 'person') and other technological terms like blaster, midi-chlorian, droid (from android), durasteel, astrogation etc.

However, Basic vocabulary includes some totally original, of unexplainable etymology, words also unrelated to English, like Moff, Jedi, Padawan, Darth etc. or even compounds like Twi'lek ("twin lekku"). It is possible that such words are derived from other languages.

Basic is usually written from left to right; however, it can also be written from top to bottom.

You're welcome.